Out of battery safety?

[STEINBVG]

I believe I have read somewhere, but now can,t find it , damn it . Searched web and this forum but not able to find the answer.


Does the finger/ protrusion on this toggle link serve as an out of battery safety? From the 3D animations it appears that the striker just touches this finger upon firing in battery.

But, if the toggle is not fully extended, the striker ( if escaped the sear) would be stopped by the finger from firing.

I,m I correct?

[STEINBVG]

It looks like Borchardt has it and it does the same thing.

[Ron Wood]

It is not an out of battery safety, it is the camming surface that cocks the firing pin as the toggle opens in recoil. As the breech block returns to battery, the cocked firing pin is caught by the sear and is no longer in contact with the forward toggle link finger. The angle of this finger is different between the Old Model toggle and the New Model with the improved breech block/extractor.

[STEINBVG]

I see. But can it be both? If the striker escaped the sear, but the toggle is not fully locked?

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by STEINBVG

I see. But can it be both? If the striker escaped the sear, but the toggle is not fully locked?

Actually, no. When manually operating the action it is possible, by depressing the trigger at the proper moment, for the firing striker escape capture by the sear bar, and for the breechblock to continue into battery with the firing pin protruding through the breech face, a form of decocking. Collectors commonly do this in order to store their pistols with reduced compression of the striker spring. It is absolutely necessary to make sure that there is no round being chambered when doing this, because the firing pin spring is very strong even when uncompressed, and this can fire a cartridge.

Under normal shooting circumstances this is not a problem because the action cycles too fast, and the trigger action is too slow, to defeat the disconnector.

There is one circumstance in which this can be a problem. Occasionally the action will "hang up," the toggle will not quite close when returning to battery. Reasons for this include insufficient strength of the recoil spring, or some other mechanical malfunction. Shooters will usually overcome this by simply pressing down the toggle until it closes and continue firing.

However. the "hangup" usually occurs at the point where the firing pin engages the sear bar, and the recoil spring strength is not sufficient to overcome the momentary addition of the firing pin spring cocking pressure. In this circumstance, simply pulling the trigger may release the entire breechblock into battery with the firing pin extended. Unintentional discharge is a possible result.

--Dwight

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by STEINBVG

I see. But can it be both? If the striker escaped the sear, but the toggle is not fully locked?

If the firing pin is released by the sear (clearly a serious problem) before the action goes into battery, the cam should intercept the firing pin before it can strike the cartridge primer. In battery, there should be only a few thousands of an inch between the cam and the firing pin. Contact between the two should occur the instant the action begins to open and the firing pin is at rest. The picture below shows the relationship between the cam and firing pin when the action is in battery.

[STEINBVG]

Originally Posted by Doubs

If the firing pin is released by the sear (clearly a serious problem) before the action goes into battery, the cam should intercept the firing pin before it can strike the cartridge primer. In battery, there should be only a few thousands of an inch between the cam and the firing pin. Contact between the two should occur the instant the action begins to open and the firing pin is at rest. The picture below shows the relationship between the cam and firing pin when the action is in battery.

So was I right ? if I understood you correctly , this cam is in actuality does sound like an out of battery safety? Not just to pull the striker back?(which seems redundant, because, the whole bolt travels back carrying the striker and than leaves it behind hanging on a sear while returning to battery.

Erma 22 kit does exactly that, no cam, and the striker can hit the primer prematurely, but it,s not a disaster for a simple blowback with puny 22.

[STEINBVG]

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

Actually, no. When manually operating the action it is possible, by depressing the trigger at the proper moment, for the firing striker escape capture by the sear bar, and for the breechblock to continue into battery with the firing pin protruding through the breech face, a form of decocking. Collectors commonly do this in order to store their pistols with reduced compression of the striker spring. It is absolutely necessary to make sure that there is no round being chambered when doing this, because the firing pin spring is very strong even when uncompressed, and this can fire a cartridge.

Under normal shooting circumstances this is not a problem because the action cycles too fast, and the trigger action is too slow, to defeat the disconnector.

There is one circumstance in which this can be a problem. Occasionally the action will "hang up," the toggle will not quite close when returning to battery. Reasons for this include insufficient strength of the recoil spring, or some other mechanical malfunction. Shooters will usually overcome this by simply pressing down the toggle until it closes and continue firing.

However. the "hangup" usually occurs at the point where the firing pin engages the sear bar, and the recoil spring strength is not sufficient to overcome the momentary addition of the firing pin spring cocking pressure. In this circumstance, simply pulling the trigger may release the entire breechblock into battery with the firing pin extended. Unintentional discharge is a possible result.

--Dwight

Ty for input.
I see an example of unintentional discharge with progressively protruding out firing pin, but still with the bolt flying into battery. And the toggle knee straightening/ locking plus there,s an additional benefit of the bolt momentum (like in open bolts)Surprising perhaps, but hardly dangerous for the gun.

Where I see a danger is a static light unlocked breech and out of control firing pin that nothing stops. So I thought that lobe would be that last line of the defense.

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by STEINBVG

Soi was right ? if I understood you correctly , this cam is in actuality does sound like an out of battery safety? Not just to pull the striker back?(which seems redundant, because, the whole bolt travels back carrying the striker and than leaves it behind hanging on a sear while returning to battery.

Erma 22 kit does exactly that, no cam, and the striker can hit the primer prematurely, but it,s not a disaster for a simple blowback with puny 22.

While the cam/ firing pin relationship during normal operation is as I said, pay attention to what Dwight also says if the firing pin is cocked and the action doesn't fully close. Squeezing the trigger to release the firing pin with the action not fully closed will allow the action to slam closed with the firing pin following and possibly contacting the primer with enough force to ignite it. Look at the picture below. At that point, the firing pin has engaged the sear and is cocked. On most Lugers, the toggles will remain that way until the trigger is squeezed. (A weak firing pin spring can allow the action to close as the recoil spring applies pressure) Squeezing the trigger will release the firing pin and the action will slam shut. NEVER do that with a cartridge in the gun. To store a Luger - unloaded, of course - with the firing pin at rest, break the action as shown and grip the toggles while squeezing the trigger. EASE the action closed.

[STEINBVG]

Originally Posted by Doubs

If the firing pin is released by the sear (clearly a serious problem) before the action goes into battery, the cam should intercept the firing pin before it can strike the cartridge primer. In battery, there should be only a few thousands of an inch between the cam and the firing pin. Contact between the two should occur the instant the action begins to open and the firing pin is at rest. The picture below shows the relationship between the cam and firing pin when the action is in battery.

Originally Posted by Doubs

While the cam/ firing pin relationship during normal operation is as I said, pay attention to what Dwight also says if the firing pin is cocked and the action doesn't fully close. Squeezing the trigger to release the firing pin with the action not fully closed will allow the action to slam closed with the firing pin following and possibly contacting the primer with enough force to ignite it. Look at the picture below. At that point, the firing pin has engaged the sear and is cocked. On most Lugers, the toggles will remain that way until the trigger is squeezed. (A weak firing pin spring can allow the action to close as the recoil spring applies pressure) Squeezing the trigger will release the firing pin and the action will slam shut. NEVER do that with a cartridge in the gun. To store a Luger - unloaded, of course - with the firing pin at rest, break the action as shown and grip the toggles while squeezing the trigger. EASE the action closed.

Got it. Thanks. Appreciate the points.

[DonVoigt]

The design of the alignment of the trigger lever in the side plate and the sear bar/cut out on the slide do not align until the action is in battery (toggle closed and receiver fully forward) is the "out of battery" firing prevention mechanism, IMO.

The link arm might serve a similar purpose under some conditions; but as pointed out by Doubs, if the sear is released from its catch, the normally strong spring will also close the action when the striker moves forward. The striker may or may not have sufficient energy at that time to activate the primer.