SS-marking on luger

[Dieter08]

I bought an all matching Erfurt-luger from 1913. It is in 100% original condition with 85% blueing, and some bigger rust-pickles. Bought it from an old man who owned it for over 40 years. On the right chamber side are the four stamps from Erfurt AND on the left of them is a small eagle (WaA???) and on the left under the eagle the SS-stamp. I saw that stamp on some K 98 K, it is the same. The right side of the eagle is only low stamped in an you can see it hardly. Does anyone know anything about that stamp??? Is it possible, that it is original? Did the SS mark their lugers like their rifles? [img]confused.gif[/img]

[Dieter08]

Forgot to tell, that the gun has no other new stamps!

[Roadkill]

Someone sent me a photo of the SS runes on a 98K, couldn't get it to post here. Lots of possibilities here. Can you post a photo?

rk

[Edward Tinker]

Send it to me and I'll post it Sir [img]wink.gif[/img]

[JohnF]

I've seen an E/SSWa1 marking several times. I believe it to be an SS armourers stamp - but that's purely an opinion. I first saw it on my Steyr Solothurn S1-100 SMG. I posted it on another forums and someone else posted a Luger stripping tool with the same stamp. Here's the stripping tool.

[JohnF]

And here's the stamp from my SMG. It is about 5x5mm and is located on the butt immediately behind the trigger guard. I hope that this information helps and I'd be interested to know if anyone else has seen this stamp.

[Lugerdoc]

Both "SS" waffenamps look bogus to me. Tom H.

[Navy]

This is an example of someone's fanciful imagination and highly developed sense of greed combined with a keen analysis of collector market forces. Pure fakery.

Tom A.

[Dieter08]

Such a stamp is on my luger like the ones showed before. I'll send a pic. Thanks for all answers. Dieter

[Leon DeSpain]

JohnF and I have communicated on this before. He lives in England and I live in Texas. I purchased the takedown tool a couple of years ago at a show from a collector with whom I am acquainted and lives in Alaska. I didn't know if it was real or not but I have handled lots of collectable items and I just liked it. I paid a nominal amount for it since the seller agreed that is was an undocumented stamp. The stamping is very well done. Another long time collector examined it and liked it, also.

I am not claiming that it is authentic but I would like to hear from those who say it is an outright fake as to their reasoning for such a conclusion. I am willing to learn.

If I remember correctly JohnF did not pay extra for the stamping. Am I correct? I paid the going price for a Waffenampt marked takedown tool for mine. Sure it was more than the price of an unmarked tool but a "real" SS tool, if such a thing exists, would be in the $200 range, I would guess. Gross profit didn't seem to be involved.

Regards, Leon

[ichabod]

Usually, a buttstock cartouche indicating it's branch of use will be an "H" for "heer" (army), "K" for kriegsmarine (navy) and "L" for luftwaffe (air force). Believe it or not, the S.S. was on the bottom rung of the supply chain. The German Army High Command was very distrustful of the S.S. and supplied them only with Army castoff weapons. I have seen photos as late as 1940 of S.S. troops carrying Kar98bs ! A Kar98B is nothing more than a 29-inch-barreled WW1 Gewher98 with a tangent site instead of the Lange visier "roller coaster". The S.S. often resorted to carrying sidearms and rifles from conquered nations - the Polish VIS-35 9mm, Belgian Hi-Power and the Polish copy of the Kar98a Mauser . If the S.S. used this 1913 P.08, and it's very possible they did, I don't understand why they reproofed the chamber. Usually the Nazis accepted Hohenzollern , Weimar and even Hapsburg proofs unless the original caliber of the weapon was changed as in the case of some 1912 Steyr-Hahn pistols converted from 9mm Steyr to 9mm Luger.

[Leon DeSpain]

The Heer used the HzA stamp on reworked pistols. Isn't it possible that the SS would use some type of inspection mark on reworked pistols? We know they did on the Death's Head Lugers and early Gew98 reworks but that was early. I suspect the SS, not being as organized as the Heer regarding weapons rework, could have used various types of stamps for rework inspection. We don't see them often or at all because they were reworking very few pistols and we can only inspect those that survived. I think it is possible that the SS was able to procure a certain number of new arms, not regular military arms and certainly not thru the Heer supply channels. I would think that those guns could have special inspection stamps also and there would be very few of them. I have no proof of the latter it's just a thought.

Regards, Leon

[Heydrich]

Ichabod, the Kar98b was more than a G98 with a tangent leaf sight instead of a roller coaster sight. Compared to the WW1 standard G98, the Kar98b had a bent bolt handle, both the barrel bands were different, and a slot was cut into the buttstock for a sling. They look very different. The Polish rifle that you mention being used by the Waffen-SS was the Wz 29 rifle. Later, after the Germans took over the Polish factory that manufactured it, it was designated the G29/40. But otherwise you are correct, the SS were generally at the bottom of the barrel for small arms in the Third Reich. Besides using captured weapons, I’ve seen photos of SS troopers with Czech VZ-24 rifles, reworked G98s, G24s, and even regular unmodified G98s from WW1.

SS markings on German WW2 rifles are controversial. Here are a few from Richard Law’s book, “Backbone of the Wehrmacht”. I’ve tried to find examples of the classic lighting bolts in their own, as opposed to the pretty well known death’s heads.







As far as Waffen-SS markings on wooden parts like the stock, the only ones I’ve ever seen, or observed in the publications I’ve read, are a death’s head or an occasional single rune either by the trigger guard, the hand guard, or on the bottom part of the stock. There is no known case of the SS marking the wooden part of the stock by the trigger guard with a Wa coded waffenamt. Sorry JohnF, the mark on your SMG is a fake.

Here are some examples of SS markings on wooden components.

[Leon DeSpain]

Hello Heydrich,

It is very interesting to me, a collector and researcher, that because one has never observed or read about something it automatically classifies the item in question as a fake.

I don't know if that SS marking is right or wrong. I am not all seeing, all knowing. But, I would venture to say that I have some pieces in my collection that are unquestionably correct that you have never seen and have not been in any books. I am sure many others do also.

Unless I had solid proof that something is faked, I myself would be very hesitant about labeling it as such. Questioning something is a reasonable response. Saying "My opinion is" or "I think" is a reasonable response. Labeling something as an outright fake is a little more serious and requires substantiation.

If you have some proof that the stamp is a fake, I would be very appreciative if you would share it with us. I would indeed like to know.

I am not trying to be nasty or insulting. I am only trying to make a point about possibly jumping to conclusions.

Regards, Leon

[Dwight Gruber]

In a similar vein, I think we would be doing newer collectors and owners a service by expressing due reservation in attributing the death's head stamp to the SS.

--Dwight

[Heydrich]

Leon:

It should be patently obvious, no matter how I phrase my remarks, that what I type is my opinion on the matter. If you don’t like the syntax I chose, I don’t know what to tell you. Also, please go back up to my post and re-read the first sentence of my second paragraph. And as far as how I come to my conclusion, it is based on deductive reasoning. That is, going from the general, to the specific. In all my many years of collecting German rifles, and reading the most respected books on the subject, I have never come across such a marking in that location. As collectors, we should not make excuses for things that deviate so much from the norm. Indeed, it should be up to the person with the apparently oddball one-of-a-kind marked object to prove it’s not a fake, not the other way around.

[Leon DeSpain]

Hello again Heydrich,

I am not trying to start a war here. I was only trying to convey my perspective on the subject. I wasn't trying to offend you. If I did, I apologize.

I reread the first sentence of the second paragraph on your previous reply. You say that SS markings on German WWII rifles are controversial. Is that a claim that the bnz 43's and 44's with single runes and in their own serial range are controversial? I thought those pieces were widely accepted by collectors as being authentic. I certainly do. Was your comment general or only referring to some rifles? What I am getting to is when someone writes something, I can only read it and take it at face value. I cannot get inside the head of someone I don't know and try to interpret what the words mean because of who wrote them. You stated "Sorry JohnF, the mark on your SMG is a fake". That seems clear enough to me. Sorry if I misinterpreted it.

On the subject of proof I, frankly, don't have to prove anything to anyone unless I am trying to sell to them. I show my items to collectors and they either like them or they don't. I buy things that appeal to me. I won't buy an outright fake if I can determine that. I feel the items should speak for themselves. But different people with different backgrounds and different experiences in collecting are going to see things differently. I have accepted that premise for a long time and it doesn't upset me if someone doesn't like something I have. I bought it for me, not them and, in a lot of cases, I feel my experience in collecting allows me to make better judgements than some of the collectors I show things to. That's just my opinion, of course, and I am certainly not referring to you in that statement. I just wanted to make that clear in case it wasn't patently obvious.

As far as the SS markings in question, I doubt there will ever be proof of authenticity. I question whether they are authentic also, but I only question. The point is that lack of proof doesn't make a questionable item a fake. How can you prove that a rifle hasn't been refinished? Claims of originality are based on experience and observation, not necessarily proof.

I'm very sorry if my comments offended you in any way. That was certainly not my intention. I don't know you and you don't know me but collectors who do know me would understand what I was attempting to explain. Maybe I could have worded it more delicately.

Kind Regards, Leon

[JohnF]

I really don't know if the mark is genuine or not. I think that it is but that's just my opinion. I found it on my SMG myself as it wasn't even pointed out by the dealer. There was certainly no premium paid for it. I do find it curious that, if faked, such a stamp could turn up on diverse items so widely dispersed. I bought my SMG in the UK and the other two items were in the US. It's also not in a prominent place on the SMG and is not easy to see.
Maybe it's real maybe it isn't. Not everything relating to the 3rd Reich is impeccably documented. I've never seen a photo of Hitler in his underpant's but I am prepared to believe that he wore them :-)

[Edward Tinker]

Although this is one of those "tricky" threads, in the sense that feelings run high, I still think this kind of discussion is very good, and we can learn a lot.

Thickening up of your skin is sometimes required, but I think overall you guys are stating your points well and don't sound angry or (too [img]wink.gif[/img] ) upset to me.

Thanks you guys, this is good to hear and learn from others opinions.

[ichabod]

Heydrich, man, I'm sorry - you're right on the K98b ! I "meant" ("meant" is a weasel word [img]wink.gif[/img] )barrel length makes it the same as a Gew98...yeah, that's the ticket....I'll be honest and admit that I've been looking for my Mauser book (can't find it) but weren't the bulk of 98b made by Suhl ?