Newbie With First Luger:

[gvf]

Hello. First post, first Luger.


I just bought this:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=492625595

sort of on impulse but I've always wanted a Luger and I liked the oddity of this one and got it at $950.

From my own quick research (I know zip about Lugers) and feedback from some Luger-guys on another forum (non-Luger) I guess this is a "Blank Toggle". Also a P08. I was told it was or became a police gun. There are some indications on the gun it may be a Simson and was a DWM or is a DWM and Simson had nothing to do with it. It's serial is
4685 u

The seller knows little about this gun. Think it's a store.

Anything you can tell me about this I'd greatly appreciate. (Also what your opinion is on price I paid).

Thanks!

[DonVoigt]

Nice buy- I missed that one! Good buy, I would have bid on it- probably more.

You are correct, 1929 DWM P 08 with blank toggle and chamber; has police sear safety added, so yes it say police service.

Any markings on the grip straps?

Receiver markings are as "weak" as I have seen, and these "u" suffix pistols suffer badly from these indistinct inspection/proof markings on the right of the receiver.

Enjoy your pistol and welcome to the forum.

[sheepherder]

"The serial number is 4685 and it is on the frame and the barrel and in both places, there is a cursive "u" under the serial number".

I don't think I've ever seen a pic of a barrel serial having the suffix...and no land dimension...

Toggle axle pin has an odd wear pattern...

Good buy!

[Sergio Natali]

Jerry

Quite a nice Luger, pity for those indistinct inspection/proof markings on the right of the receiver.

These guns made by BKIW (DWM) if I'm not wrong were manufactured in 1927-28 years for a contract with the Riff Tribe in Morocco, but apparently this contract could not be honoured because of political considerations, and those guns with a blank toggle were probably delivered to the police.
Apparently they don't know for sure the exact number of pistols that were produced for the Riff tribe contract.

My 2 cents.

All the best


Sergio

[gvf]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Nice buy- I missed that one! Good buy, I would have bid on it- probably more.

You are correct, 1929 DWM P 08 with blank toggle and chamber; has police sear safety added, so yes it say police service.

Any markings on the grip straps?

Receiver markings are as "weak" as I have seen, and these "u" suffix pistols suffer badly from these indistinct inspection/proof markings on the right of the receiver.

Enjoy your pistol and welcome to the forum.

Thanks so much!

From the photos I can't tell about grip straps.

These are the two marks, faint one is receiver, heightened in photo-eiditor. The faint one looks like a Simson mark but someone on that other thread said Simsons didn't have serial numbers going up that high ("4685 u").

[IMG][URL=http://s836.photobucket.com/user/gvff/media/CloseUp_zps0sdwppqv.jpg.html]


Simson Marks

[IMG]

[gvf]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

"The serial number is 4685 and it is on the frame and the barrel and in both places, there is a cursive "u" under the serial number".

I don't think I've ever seen a pic of a barrel serial having the suffix...and no land dimension...

Toggle axle pin has an odd wear pattern...

Good buy!

Thanks!

I wasn't kidding when I said I was a Luger Newbie: what do you mean about "no land dimension": ("I don't think I've ever seen a pic of a barrel serial having the suffix...and no land dimension... ") ?

[gvf]

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

Jerry

Quite a nice Luger, pity for those indistinct inspection/proof markings on the right of the receiver.

These guns made by BKIW (DWM) if I'm not wrong were manufactured in 1927-28 years for a contract with the Riff Tribe in Morocco, but apparently this contract could not be honoured because of political considerations, and those guns with a blank toggle were probably delivered to the police.
Apparently they don't know for sure the exact number of pistols that were produced for the Riff tribe contract.

My 2 cents.

All the best


Sergio

Now THAT'S what I call specific information! Why did they have blank-toggles? Something to do with the "Riff Tribe"?

I though a lot of this "disappearing names" and Simsons had to do with Nazis when first in power trying to hide arms from the Allies in WWI because of the Peace Agreement which put stringent limits on Germany's arms

Boy, you could sell these guns just with the historical stories!
Fascinating - thanks so much for the Riff Tribe info...

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by gvf

Thanks!

I wasn't kidding when I said I was a Luger Newbie: what do you mean about "no land dimension": ("I don't think I've ever seen a pic of a barrel serial having the suffix...and no land dimension... ") ?

It's the bore diameter measured from land to land, in millimeters...and with a comma, not a period...8,82 seems to be the usual...

If i can't find a pic quick, I'll take a pic of mine...

[DonVoigt]

It is not a Simson receiver, but one made by DWM later BKIW and perhaps assembled by the , the "u" suffix is well known on police lugers in this range.

The faint, indistinct eagle is the same as the one on the barrel, and similar but different to the Simson eagle.

May have been made in 1927-29 and are referred to now as
1929 DWM formerly called "sneak" luger.
I have 3934u and 4506u, both with police sear safetys. Both have the "crappy" inspector markings on the right chamber!

land dimensions are numbers, like 8.82 stamped on the bottom of the barrel after proof firing and guaging the land diameter.

Originally Posted by gvf

Thanks so much!

From the photos I can't tell about grip straps.

These are the two marks, faint one is receiver, heightened in photo-eiditor. The faint one looks like a Simson mark but someone on that other thread said Simsons didn't have serial numbers going up that high ("4685 u").

[IMG][URL=http://s836.photobucket.com/user/gvff/media/CloseUp_zps0sdwppqv.jpg.html][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[gvf]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

It's the bore diameter measured from land to land, in millimeters...and with a comma, not a period...8,82 seems to be the usual...

If i can't find a pic quick, I'll take a pic of mine...

Thanks! And that's usually near the serial stamp?

[gvf]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

It is not a Simson receiver, but one made by DWM later BKIW and perhaps assembled by the , the "u" suffix is well known on police lugers in this range.

The faint, indistinct eagle is the same as the one on the barrel, and similar but different to the Simson eagle.

May have been made in 1927-29 and are referred to now as
1929 DWM formerly called "sneak" luger.
I have 3934u and 4506u, both with police sear safetys. Both have the "crappy" inspector markings on the right chamber!

land dimensions are numbers, like 8.82 stamped on the bottom of the barrel after proof firing and guaging the land diameter.

Thanks also! Do you mean DWM and it became BKIW? Also what does "perhaps assembles by the" mean? Assembled by BKIW?

Thanks again! That's one of the reasons I bought this gun: seems a mystery exactly what its past was. Love it....

[mrerick]

DWM became BKIW. This would be one of the last guns assembled at the DWM factory in Berlin before they transferred the manufacturing to Mauser in Oberndorf starting in 1930.

[Sergio Natali]

Jerry

Sorry but today I didn't manage to answer any earlier.
If I'm not wrong according one of my "Luger Bibles J C Still WEIMAR AND EARLY NAZI LUGERS, those guns were called BKIW-MAUSER TRANSITIONAL DWM LUGERS (Abbreviated 29DWM although many of the Lugers we call 29 DWM were manufactured long before 1929) most were made by BKIW and involved also surplus parts. Lugers in the s, t and u suffix serial range have characteristics and markings that distinguish them from earlier BKIW (DWM) production.
The majority of guns reported in the t and u suffix have an unmarked toggle, and have long been termed 1933 MAUSER Sneak, but in real terms these are "transitional" between the last of BIKW production and early MAUSER production. The blank toggles are almost exclusively found on Lugers in the t block and lower half of the u block and this suggests us that perhaps about 15,000 of them were produced.
Probably the so called Riff Contract pistol production started in the late s suffix serial number range which would suggest that at least some of this range was manufactured as early as 1927, but apparently we still don't know for sure how many of them were actually manufactured. Since these were not delivered, they may have stayed in BKIW's unsold inventory until 1929 and appears that additional blank-toggle Lugers were manufactured to fullfill Prussian police orders for pistols for the Landjägerei, Schupo and Police Schools, perhaps for uniformity to match those from the Riff Contract.

Sergio

[gvf]

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

Jerry

Sorry but today I didn't manage to answer any earlier.
If I'm not wrong according one of my "Luger Bibles J C Still WEIMAR AND EARLY NAZI LUGERS, those guns were called BKIW-MAUSER TRANSITIONAL DWM LUGERS (Abbreviated 29DWM although many of the Lugers we call 29 DWM were manufactured long before 1929) most were made by BKIW and involved also surplus parts. Lugers in the s, t and u suffix serial range have characteristics and markings that distinguish them from earlier BKIW (DWM) production.
The majority of guns reported in the t and u suffix have an unmarked toggle, and have long been termed 1933 MAUSER Sneak, but in real terms these are "transitional" between the last of BIKW production and early MAUSER production. The blank toggles are almost exclusively found on Lugers in the t block and lower half of the u block and this suggests us that perhaps about 15,000 of them were produced.
Probably the so called Riff Contract pistol production started in the late s suffix serial number range which would suggest that at least some of this range was manufactured as early as 1927, but apparently we still don't know for sure how many of them were actually manufactured. Since these were not delivered, they may have stayed in BKIW's unsold inventory until 1929 and appears that additional blank-toggle Lugers were manufactured to fullfill Prussian police orders for pistols for the Landjägerei, Schupo and Police Schools, perhaps for uniformity to match those from the Riff Contract.

Sergio

Thanks again so much for this wealth of highly specific info.
So is it certain exactly why the "T" and "U" Lugers were Blanks?

From this statement of yours: "[It] appears that additional blank-toggle Lugers were manufactured to fullfill Prussian police orders.." that there was intentionality in "Blankness", i.e. Sneaks to avoid WWI Allies knowledge. That wasn't the ultimate purpose, the purpose was to make guns for the police, to sell to others (Riff Contract for example) or whatever. But they were made as anonymous, they was their "style".


The other more prosaic explanation I've heard is the Blanks were those guns randomly thrown together from unmarked parts. But that doesn't really explain why they were Blank. Colt 1911s were said to have been thrown together from a pile of parts and then used for soldiers in training camps. But they still were stamped COLT.

So, is it certain Blanks were made to be Sneaks?

Thanks.

Jerry
"gvf"

[gvf]

Sorry about all these questions, but do any of you know where I could find the S/N for my Luger, what list. I've Googled it but no luck.

As was seen in the photos the serial is "4685 u"

The "u" is in script.

There is nothing but that number/letter. (The "u" is under the number)

Thanks!

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by gvf

Sorry about all these questions, but do any of you know where I could find the S/N for my Luger, what list. I've Googled it but no luck.

As was seen in the photos the serial is "4685 u"

The "u" is in script.

There is nothing but that number/letter. (The "u" is under the number)

Thanks!

I'm not sure I follow your question, you have the serial number,
it is on the frame, as you say it is 4685/u.

D. Gruber has made a list of observed commercial numbers,
yours is not on it, but will likely make the next list.

The P 08s to either side are police sear pistols, issued to various
Landjaeri units when they were being armed with the P 08, as has been noted and mentioned in one of the posts above.

Does yours have any markings on the grip straps?

How about more pictures when you git it?

[gvf]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I'm not sure I follow your question, you have the serial number,
it is on the frame, as you say it is 4685/u.

D. Gruber has made a list of observed commercial numbers,
yours is not on it, but will likely make the next list.

The P 08s to either side are police sear pistols, issued to various
Landjaeri units when they were being armed with the P 08, as has been noted and mentioned in one of the posts above.

Does yours have any markings on the grip straps?

How about more pictures when you git it?

Sure I'll post more pix, especially that signature of Eva Braun.

Joke of course. I've never heard Eva was a shooter. Too bad, she could have taken her boyfriend out early on.

What I meant about S/N was how whatever the record of it described the gun. Just curious...

[Lugerdoc]

Jerry et al, I've alway believed that the BKIW (post DWM) M29 blank Po8 toggles had the DWM markings intentionally wiped off, to avoid any liabitity to former DWM owners. TH

[Edward Tinker]

In the Mauser Parabellum (and our book), there is very strong evidence that these were made for the Riff contract, but it did not work out.

1929 DWM sn 2858u is one of the many s, t, and u suffix DWM Commercial pistols found with blank toggles. These blank toggle pistols were made by DWM under a contract to the Riff tribes in Morocco in 1927. The order was never delivered, and the blank-toggle pistols were eventually re-directed to the police.

[Sergio Natali]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

In the Mauser Parabellum (and our book), there is very strong evidence that these were made for the Riff contract, but it did not work out.

After this I wouldn't see much else to add.


Sergio