First luger! 1920 DWM

[Don M]

Although the side plate has the sear safety cutout, I think it is a replacement. I don't see any evidence of a hole in the sear bar or a rivet hole for the sear safety, so I doubt this was a police gun at any time.

[Edward Tinker]

Don, how many police guns have you seen without sear or mag safeties.

It is a blank looking sideplate with a police sear safety cut out? although it might be numbered underneath in the commercial style. How many people would have a replacement sideplate (no numbers) and cut out for a sear safety. Not many unless it was laying around.

The condition issues of this luger makes it a $600-$750 dollar gun in my opinion, its just interesting that it has these markings. HZA... it was in a depot repair at some point. They might have used a sideplate laying around or it might be an addition by Bob Smith in Oklahoma 6 years ago when the sideplate was missing or damaged.

[Don M]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Don, how many police guns have you seen without sear or mag safeties.

It is a blank looking sideplate with a police sear safety cut out? although it might be numbered underneath in the commercial style. How many people would have a replacement sideplate (no numbers) and cut out for a sear safety. Not many unless it was laying around.

The condition issues of this luger makes it a $600-$750 dollar gun in my opinion, its just interesting that it has these markings. HZA... it was in a depot repair at some point. They might have used a sideplate laying around or it might be an addition by Bob Smith in Oklahoma 6 years ago when the sideplate was missing or damaged.

The P08s that were issued to the barracked Bereitschaftspolizei do not have either sear or mag safeties. They were exempted from the 1933 order (HWIS pp. 36-7). Many other police P08s have sear but no mag safeties. This pistol apparently never had a sear safety (or a mag safety) and has no other indications of police service. John Sabato made the same observation earlier in this thread. I don't know who stuck the sideplate on this one.

[Edward Tinker]

don, you believe that barracked Bereitschaftspolizei are the only police that did not get sear safeties?

interesting - that has not been my observation

there were many police guns that ended up into the army BEFORE sear safeties were required; such as:

Example 1 - 1920 DWM, sn 3004a, property marked to the Polizeiwehr Bayern. As this organization was disbanded in 1922, the pistol never received a sear safety

In 1933 the Schiwy-Sicherung (sear safety, patent DRP 501,267 by Ludwig Schiwy) was ordered fitted to all P08s in police service throughout Prussia. Due to the independent circumstances of the police forces in other states the sear safety regulation did not apply to them. Jan Still (renowned P08 expert and author) has suggested that many police P08s were retrofitted with sear safeties after the police in all the other states were nationalized in 1936.

Example 2 -This 1918 DWM military pistol sn 8739a has neither sear safety nor magazine safety, and is not police unit marked. It was originally an LP08, demonstrated by the receiver notch. Its police use is recognized by its small markings (has a PTV barrel)

Example 3 - DWM military proofed 1920 dated, serial number 8630. This was one of the pistols manufactured under DWM’s Weimar military contract. This pistol was originally issued to the Sachsen Polizeischul and unit stamped P.S. In 1933 the name of the facility was changed to the Saxon Polizeischul at Berg. The original mark was scrubbed and overstamped with the new PBg stamp There is no sear safety, as the police schools were not subject to that requirement

Example 4 - This Commercial DWM, with neither sear nor magazine safety, is weapon number 393 issued to the Saxon Police School in the province of Berg. In addition to the c/N Commercial proofs, on the right receiver is found the e/WaA66 Waffenamt acceptance mark and e/H firing proof.

My point is that many police guns did not receive a sear safety, and although this one is likely not police, others did not receive a sear safety.

[Sergio Natali]

Don and Edward,

I just wanted to say thanks fo your lessons, I think there is always something to learn from such an interesting dispute.
Thanks again and "chapeau" to both of you.

Sergio

[Lyn Islaub]

To add to Ed's thoughts on this subject is S/N 3623 with WaA66 and Weimar Eagle H proofs on the right side of the receiver. It was originally a Crown N proofed commercial pistol that had the serial number re-stamped in the military fashion on the takedown lever and side plate. Neither a sear or magazine safety were installed and the pistol is unit stamped P.S.393 for a police school on the front strap. This pistol is another of those that has had the alpha suffix of the serial number on both the barrel and frame over stamped with a 'crown'.

[Don M]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

don, you believe that barracked Bereitschaftspolizei are the only police that did not get sear safeties?.......
My point is that many police guns did not receive a sear safety, and although this one is likely not police, others did not receive a sear safety.
[/FONT]

Ed, I was giving only one example in my reply above and agree that the Bavarian PwB and many Prussian police school P08s also did not receive sear safeties. The tables in HWIS Chapters 12 and 16 provide evidence of this. There may be other examples that don't come immediately to my mind.

I guess the point of all this is that the lack of a sear safety does not rule out police service and other evidence should be considered. Regarding the gun that is the topic of this thread, having ruled out the installation of a sear or mag safety, despite the replacement side plate, there is no other evidence to suggest police service.

[318is_Parabellum]

Gentlemen,
The Hza firing proof suggests military (Wehrmacht or SS) service, does it not?

[Don M]

Originally Posted by 318is_Parabellum

Gentlemen,
The Hza firing proof suggests military (Wehrmacht or SS) service, does it not?

It does.

[Dwight Gruber]

The stick-wing eagle/HZa stamp pattern was implemented in 1937. The Eagle/swastika army firing proof was implemented in 1939.

--Dwight