Imperial proofs

[klaus 3338]

Ron thanks a lot for your help and work!

[klaus 3338]

I remember that I wrote an article about the German proof law and the acceptance stamps in German on luger gunboards but nobody could translate it into English. If I would try to translate it I would make too much mistakes.

[JTD]

Klause, Dwight and Ron, thanks much for this lesson. It was very informative. John

[Neil Young]

Thank you Klaus, Dwight and Ron for all of the information. I am really glad that my question provoked this extensive discussion. My initial question was answered and I learned a lot more than I asked for. I guess that there is a little more room in this old brain for more info, but I'd better write it down quickly.

Thanks again (hopefully I didn't miss any contributors).

Neil

[friendlyfred]

Can anyone enumerate these marks from my "Spandau" Luger?

[tenbears]

I can't tell you what the marks mean but I can tell you you have lit a firestorm with this pix. I did not realise that you have this Luger for sale when I first posted. Well we shall see what happens.

[friendlyfred]

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=16983

More pix

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by friendlyfred

Can anyone enumerate these marks from my "Spandau" Luger?

In the first picture, the rightmost stamp is the Imperial Erfurt Rifle Factory power-proof eagle, displayed wtih cross and chalice.

The stamp next left is the final acceptance stamp.

Next is the final assembly aceptance.

Fourth to the left is the inspection stamp certifying receiver hardness and date stamp. Above it is the crown/RC stamp of the Revisons-Commission, accepting a part wihch is out-of-specification in some non-critical manner.

The final two marks are meaningless within the context of the official P08 marking specifications. The forms of the crowns themselves differ from contemporary design in that the base of the crown is an oval, rather than the flat baseline of known inspector stamp crowns (this is also the case for the crown above the K on the center toggle). The design of these spurious crowns appears to emulate the design of the "Spandau" toggle mark.

It is noteworthy that the proof eagle of the Imperial Spandau Rifle Factory does not appear anywhere on the pistol.

The serif Roman K of the toggle proof is an anachronism. The Frakture typeface was the official typeface of the German Empire, and was in constant use through the Weimar years. Its use was officially discouraged in 1934, but it was not banned outright until 1941.

The only prescribede use for a Roman letter on the exterior of the P08 was the Roman A signifying Auschuss (rejected).

--Dwight

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by klaus 3338

Dwight- you used the words “Erfurt style proof” for the power proof stamps (Beschussstempel in German) on all Erfurt Lugers and the breech blocks and barrels on the DMW Lugers 1915-1918.
The "Spandau proofs" are the power proof stamps on the DWM Lugers until 1915. As you reports above came the "Abnahmebeamte" Proofing officers and inspectors for the DWM Lugers from the Spandau Arsenal. And that was the reason that I used the words Spandau proofs.
Regards Klaus

Klaus,

Thanks for the clarification. In the weeks since your post I have done some further research on the subject of proof marks. The Prussian Imperial Rifle Factories in Spandau, Erfurt, and Danzig each had their own characteristic pattern of the Heraldic Eagle, displayed. The Imperial Rifle Factories of other German states had their own, non-eagle, characteristic marks.

DWM's contract for P08 production was entered into with the Spandau factory, which was responsible for certification and proof.

--Dwight

[Lugerdoc]

If not completely spurious, I'd say a rework of a previously issued Erfurt PO8. TH

[Norme]

Originally Posted by friendlyfred

Can anyone enumerate these marks from my "Spandau" Luger?

Hi Fred, Most collectors nowadays believe that ALL Spandau Lugers are fakes. While there are still a few believers out there, the market value of these guns has been severely diminished. I'd love to see a straight up photo of the middle toggle, in the picture you posted it looks like the word Spandau is slanted. Regards, Norm

[friendlyfred]

I'll get a better pix later today after chores. I was hunting through my computer checking old passwords when I found the one for the Luger Forum. I came back to check if anything new on a Spandau. I decided back in '07 to never sell the pistol. Fake or not, it is unique and quite a conversation piece. Many thanks to Dwight...

[friendlyfred]

Yes, the name stamp IS slanted

[friendlyfred]

This is from Guns and Hunting, March 1965. I got this copy from Ralph Shattuck. I would dearly love to find an original copy.

From this article, my number 27 might be authentic??

This might change a few minds....

I will NOT sell this gun without removing a cloud cast upon it.

ANY opinions are welcome. This makes for a fun conversation.

[Norme]

Originally Posted by friendlyfred

Yes, the name stamp IS slanted

Hi Fred, Thanks for posting that toggle photo. In addition to the slanted SPANDAU, the toggle is missing the bevels on it's sides, which indicates that it was ground down to remove an existing ERFURT stamp (see photo). I know this is small consolation to you, given the amount you have invested in this piece, but I think it's a wonderful relic of the golden age of Luger fakery, when forgers and boosters roamed the earth, boldly going where no man had gone before.
Best regards, Norm

[alanint]

Also please note the very small space, (distance) between the Crown and the word "Spandau"on the alledgedly authentic examples in the article versus the larger space on the example being discussed.

[wlyon]

I have always heard and read that no Spandau's have been found except in the US. Is this a fact? Hope Klaus gets in this discussion. Must admit they are interesting but my bet is on fake. Bill

[Dwight Gruber]

"SPANDAU" on the toggle is clearly pantographed.

--Dwight

[friendlyfred]

Thanks Norme for your observation, however I must play devil's advocate and point out that not all toggles have the bevel. See example in attached picture. I just grabbed the Luger under my desk and took the pix. Personal defense weapon. Nothing special about it. I will dig some out of the vault and see if there are more flat examples.


Also, if the toggle had been ground down, there would be a difference in thickness and also detectable "dishing" from the ground down area. There is none. The toggle is absolutely flat...period. It has been been examined with a micrometer and a microscope for tool marks.

Dwight suggests that the "stamp" has been "Pantographed".

Several years ago, when I first brought up my pistol, someone requested that I remove the whitening from the word Spandau. I am going to do this and examine the interior of the "stamp" and let you folks know what I find. IF, the stamp was a pantograph, what was it copied from??? Although the stamp is slightly slanted, why is it identical to the "authenticated" Spandau's in Middleman's article. I disagree that the distances are different. I have only a copy of a copy of a copy of the article. That is why I want a copy of the original article. Those photographs can be measured more accurately.

Now comes the request for suggestions on how to remove the whitening without effecting the surrounding metal or causing any abrasion to the stamp or surrounding area. I don't want to do anything which could affect the inspection of the stamp area.

Many thanks for all input. All opinions are welcome.

Fred Pack

[friendlyfred]

One definite difference between my pistol and the poorly copied toggles in the article is the figure 2 (two). It is different between example #1 in Mr. Middleman's article, and Norm's example.

Is my pistol's figure 2 (on the toggle) consistent with German usage of the period?

Fred