Grandpa's gun

[willyboy]

I borrowed this gun from my grandpa to take to "show and tell" at school. It is very interesting of course. Can you tell me about it. There are a lot of confusing markings on it. Please help.



Whats up with the brass plate?




????


"94"




Vickers, thats British right?







Authentic WWII eyecandy will be shown if you reply (dagger, Jap arisaka 99, SS officer's crucifix)

[Edward Tinker]

one of just under 10,ooo lugers ordered by the dutch west indies. Due to embargo, they were gathered parts, put together by Vivkers, so vickers did not makes the parts, DWM did. They had unit (brass plates) on one side that showed the unit. In addition there are dutch acceptance markings on it and alsothe word RUST for the safety are the primariy areas to tell a dutchie from all others.''


ed

[willyboy]

Value? Does it being a "dutchie" raise value or lower? What does NP stand for?

Sorry I'm a Luger noob, DWM?

[Edward Tinker]

raises value. is it all matcning?

the NP I am unsure of.


The brass plate is aunit marking...

ed

[willyboy]

What do u mean "all matching". How can I tell if it is "all matching"?

[willyboy]

side w/out plate has replacement grip.

[Ron Wood]

Your Grandpa has quite a desirable Luger. It was made as part of a contract order from the Dutch in 1919, and delivered sometime around 1921 or 1922.. Because this was right at the end of WWI, DWM was not permitted to manufacture 9mm pistols. So the contract was filled by Vickers, Ltd, of England. Oddly enough, the Lugers were assembled and finished by Vickers from parts provided by DWM!

Actually only around 6000 Vickers Lugers were made for the Dutch. A few low serial numbered guns were made by Vickers for company executives and promotional purposes, so for a long time it was thought that the guns were numbered from 1 to a little over 10,000. In reality, the Vickers Dutch contract guns picked up with a starting serial number 1 higher than the last Luger provided by DWM, so the serial number range is actually from 4182 to 10181. Your Grandfatherâ??s Luger was made toward the end of production.

The brass plate indicates the unit to which it was issued and weapon number. This Luger was issued to the 4th Company of the Left Half of the 21st Infantry Battalion and is weapon number 17 in the companyâ??s inventory.

These guns were used in the Dutch East Indies (modern day Indonesia) and saw hard usage in a tropical climate; therefore they are usually in pretty rough condition. They are frequently mismatched and have replacement grips. Your Grandfatherâ??s Luger is one of the better examples.

Since the gun was assembled in England, the markings on the bottom of the barrel are British proofs and NP stands for â??Nitro Proofâ?� indicating it was tested with smokeless powder. "Rust" is the Dutch word for "safe" and is pronounced "roost".

[willyboy]

As promised...

Jap Arisaka type 99


German dress dagger. Oxidized Ivory! Tarnished Silver!


Swastika and German Eagle. Leaf detail.


Arisaka bayonet


G-pa's dogtag and SS officer's crucifix. Belt part from German officer belt. "Gott mit uns"= God with us.


Skull and crossbones denotes SS officer.

[willyboy]

Wow, thanks Ron!



NOTE: Arisaka is from Great Uncle in PTO. Rest from Grandpa in ETO. He (G-pa) has his dad's mess cup thingy and dogtag from WWI. Neato! G-pa was in 9th Armored Division. He walked across the Rhine River on the Ludendorf bridge at Remagen!

[willyboy]

Value?

[Pete Ebbink]

Will,

Last Vickers I saw that was for sale in the past few months was with FGS, Inc. out of Ohio. I think their asking price was $ 3750...granted probably a bit high as they are a retail/dealer.

I think theirs was in a bit nicer in condition that yours, but yours is still very nice.

My guess on your Luger...$ 3200 or so...

Your gun seems to have some active spots of rust & pitting. Some cleaning and lubrication would be advisable so it does not get any worse.

BTW...here is a snapshot of my Dutch KOL from the 1928 contract...same/similar unit plate as yours...

I bought this one from Member Ron Wood a few years back...it has ties to my father...having served in this same unit...when he was a young fellow in Indonesia...

The dagger is an Heer or Army dagger. If the the blade has not been sharpened, about $400, maybe a little more. It looks a little rusty on the outside.

[Pete Ebbink]

Will,

Re : The right side wooden grip.

It may be the coarse checkering of a Javanese arsenal replacement. Can you look to see if you see the stamping of "GS" along the inside surface of the right grip ?

If yes...it is still a nice grip to have on this Luger...

I have lightened-up two of your photos to some more details of your grips :






BTW...can you describe or show a photo of the bottom of your magazine's wooden bottom. Is there a flat metal tab inletted into the bottom of the wood ? If yes, you might be lucky to have a Dutch magazine as well. Those sell for over $ 300 just by themselves...

Here is a photo of the magazine on my Luger :

[Vlim]

A very nice example of a Dutch KNIL luger.

The KNIL "Koninklijk Nederlands Indisch Leger" (Royal Dutch Indonesian Army) was a colonial army with a catch. Many members were local Indonesians. As the Dutch were on the good guys side during WW2, this is one of the few service Lugers that was used on the allied side, until the Indonesian islands were overrun by the Japanese, who confiscated and re-used many Dutch lugers. As a result, American GI's captured former Dutch lugers during the pacific war.

The brass plate shows regiment info. A very good book 'The Dutch Luger' was written about these guns.

Vickers had ties with DWM, the gun's original manufacturer. Members of the Berlin Loewe family had seats in the boards of Loewe, DWM and Vickers. In fact, when one of the Loewe brothers died, his seat was taken over by a member of the Vickers family. As a result of this common interest, DWM also produced the famous Maxim/Vickers machinegun. So when DWM needed a favor done just after WW1, Vickers was prepared to step in and organize the delivery of the pistols to the Netherlands.

Ron: Slight correction: rust is pronounced exactly as the English rust, it only differs in meaning. It can best be translated as the military phrase 'at ease'. It also means 'rest'.

The crown/W is the Dutch royal property mark. The W stands for the Dutch Queen Wilhelmina, during her reign the gun was accepted for service.

[Ron Wood]

Thank you Gerben. I thought that English was the only language that pronounced "u" as "uh" rather than the way most of the rest of the world pronounces it as "oo".

[willyboy]

Pete-No, I don't see any metal inlete, it doesn't look like yours. Do I have to take the grip off to see "GS"

RGARRETT-The blade is fairly sharp, but I don't think it has been sharpened.

Thanks for all the help. I know this is the "Luger Forum" but can any of you guys help with the Arisaka. I was able to figure out (from the markings on it) that is was made at the Kokura Arsenal in Tokyo between 1939 and 1945. Serial numbers from 0-99,999. Series 24. Serial #=55419. Still has 16 petal crysanthemum. Again thanks for all your help. I'm sure my grandpa will love to know everything about his Luger.

[Navy]

willyboy,

The presence of the skull and crossbones on the crucifix is a fairly common Christian motif. It has zero connection with the SS.

Tom A

[willyboy]

I don't mean to argue but my research says otherwise.

[Ron Wood]

Your illustration shows a SS insignia for sure, but that in no way makes Tom's statement false. The crucifix that you have has zero connection with the SS...don't argue. Your research needs to go a little deeper and consider other origins of the skull and crossbones symbol.

[willyboy]

OK.