Luger Cache w/US GIs during WWII

[John Winter]

My old friend and fishing buddy Ray Zelten had been a first sergeant in the 28th Div. during WWII and fought as an infantryman from France into Germany, was wounded four times and lost his younger brother in the Ardennes offensive. One of the reasons that accounted for Ray's success as a businessman was his phenomenal memory for details and this extended to his wartime experiences. I will always retain the byf 44 P.38 with holster captured by him at St. Lo which he carried for the remainder of the war. Lugers were plentiful to frontline troops, but because of the double action feature and the larger trigger guard which enabled the bearer to shoot with a gloved hand, P.38's were much more popular. However, Lugers were excellent trading material.

I introduced Ray to an uncle who was a German WWII vet and who was visiting us from Germany in 1997 and was amazed at how well they got along, even though neither directly understood a word the other spoke. Both were men of means and after dinner at a local restaurant Ray bought Uncle his dinner! I couldn't help but feel that when a man who had suffered as much hardship as Ray had during the war would buy dinner for a former enemy officer, the war was definately over. Both Ray and Uncle passed away in 2003.

[lboos]

My Dad passed away last mo. at a VA assisted living home in Texas, he was 87 yrs, old. during ww2 he served in China. a mo. before he passed i ask him what was his job in China? he said he was in charge of a small team whose job it was to blow up bridges and and narrow roads to slow the japanese army down. i ask him what type weapons he carried. he said they all carried a thompson and 1911s, and he smiled when he said that.
he never talked much about ww2 before, and like a fool i never asked untill it was to late. these ww2 Hero,s are now leaving us at 2000 a day, if you are luckey enough to have one , talk to him now, dont be a dumbass like i was.

[phatrick88]

My Grandpa, who recently passed away, was in the 8th Air Force and fought in the Battle of the Bulge, etc. By the end of the war, I guess he had managed to piece together a nice collection of trophys and had a dufflebag full of Lugers, P38s, and a bunch of other souvenir's he had collected. He mentioned some of the stuff came from German Airbases he had landed at after they had been liberated (can we say Krieghoff lugers!!). Anyways, somewhere along his trip back to the states, his entire dufflebag was stolen and all those prizes lost forever! Thinking about this makes me just sick because being his only grandson, those guns would without a doubt be in my collection right now. He told me some cool stories, but I really regret not asking him more questions like these and learning more about the war from his perspective. I heard a statistic that something like a few hundred WWII vets die each day?? Very sad. Great to hear these stories and keeping their memories alive.

[John Sabato]

Pat, Welcome to the Lugerforum. Even if you are Luger'less' because of your grandfather's loss of the duffelbag you are welcome here. You honor your grandfather's memory by holding him in such high regard.

I am sorry to say that the statistic you heard is not accurate. We are losing between 1500 to 2000 WW2 veterans every day. If they lived another hundred years, we would never be able to repay them the debt they are owed for not only OUR freedom, but virtually any freedom that exists in the world today.

The vets of today continue that honor legacy. Honor your grandfather by greeting each person you meet in uniform and thanking them for their service.

Enjoy your membership here... Save your money, read this forum, buy books and educate yourself on the engineering, history and use of the Luger pistol, and When you find the right Luger for you, buy it in honor of your grandfather and pass it on to YOUR grandson when the time comes.

[GJB22]

Seems like P08s and P38s were the norm concerning weapons brought back, but what was the limit to which a GI could bring home? Were there actual rules in place concerning certain weapons. For example, could a GI bring/mail home a fully functional MG42?

[the gunman]

They were not allowed to ship full auto stuff home. But it sure did not stop they from doing so. Many were confiscated here at the postal dept. But many many just got home. Had a vet living next door to me who brought home a MP-40 and an MP-44 he took apart. He simply brought them home in his duffel bag. I remember asking him about bringing them in to the U.S. He said they warned us not to and told of penalties for bringing them in. But many guys said F((&% you and disreguarded this as BS. By the way, I never heard of a case of any WW II GI being charged with bringing anything in. That vet is long gone now and I moved away years ago. I often wonder what happened to those guns. I did manage to get to shoot both -I remember I had a real job finding the 8mm kurtz ammo.

[policeluger]

About 8 years ago some youths broke into a locals home. Hanging in the back of his closet, and long forgotten was the MP-40 he had brought home at the end of the war. The kids took it out in the local desert and were caught by local police shooting it, the vet was not charged with any crime, very lenient for California, kid did some breaking and entering time and the PD still has the MP40, I had a chance to shoot it, having shot one before and while fun, I turned the chance down.....

[alanint]

A Great Uncle of mine brought home a Spandau MG with pressed steel sled mount from WW1 in a very inovative way;
As an enlisted man, he was part of a column who were waiting to board trains in France at the end of the war. There was a large collection of tripod mounted MGs of various makes and models on the train platform, all with tags on them. Upon making inquiries, it was learned that these were all souvenirs being shipped home for high-ranking officers!
Well, my uncle said #*@ this and went over an picked an MG he liked, wereupon he proceeded to scratch out the name on the tag and placed his own name and address on the reverse side. This was done as a typical enlisted man's joke. Imagine his surprise when he returned to his familie's home and foung the gun waiting there for him! It had beaten him home and probably traveled in more style and comfort than he did! This gun later ended up painted silver and chained to the flagpole at the local post office as a display. Sometime in the 1970s the local police realized it was a live, unregistered gun and carted it away. I remember seeing it outside the PO as a youth and hearing the story of it's acquisition from my Uncle.
Too bad he did not register it during the 68 amnesty. It would have been great to own.

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by phatrick88
By the end of the war, I guess he had managed to piece together a nice collection of trophys and had a dufflebag full of Lugers, P38s, and a bunch of other souvenir's he had collected. ... Anyways, somewhere along his trip back to the states, his entire dufflebag was stolen and all those prizes lost forever! Thinking about this makes me just sick because being his only grandson, those guns would without a doubt be in my collection right now. ...

Welcome to the forum;

a few comments;

1. Lots of guys managed to bring stuff home, and then over the next 2, 3 or even 45 years sold it for whatever reason, I hear all the time of how something or a lot of things were sold to fund a project, put kids through school or just put food on the table.


2. As the only grandson, doesn't mean it would have come to you! lots of fathers passed stuff along to daughters who treasured it, and/or some who passed it along to sons who had no interest and sold them to guys like my mentor or me


Ed

[John Sabato]

I know personally a 9th Infantry Division vet who brought home a really nice Luger rig... kept it for 50 years and SOLD IT to pay for his trip to be in Normany France for the 50th Anniversay of the D-DAY Invasion... where he had captured it.

He said it was great to be there to honor those who didn't make it... but he sure misses that Luger.

[MikeP]

I got a well used byf 41 as a day's pay for working a hayfield.
Pretty good deal even in 1964.
It was worth about 25 bucks with holster and cash pay would have been abou t $10.

[the gunman]

Hope you hung onto it Mike

[Navy]

Here in Northern Virginia, I come across an un-registered vet bring back subgun about every 6 months. They just sorta show up outta the blue, usually as the result of my leaving my collector business cards at shows. typically, I get a phone call saying, "Are you the guy who has the table with Lugers at Chantilly?" and after some palaver, the subject rises. My response is always, "No, I absolutely do NOT want to see it; hell, I don't want to be in the same zip code with it." I ALWAYS tell the owner what they are facing if caught with it and advise them to contact their attorney and through the "mouthpiece" make arrangements with BATFE to dispose of the piece. I have zero idea whether any of these folks followed my advise.

Tom A

[zeke1312]

Thought I'd make a comment here. Most of you probably know this and have more detail/info on the subject than I do.

The term "goose step" is really what the Germans called "parade step" and was in most part used during the "pass in review", i.e., phase of marching before the reviewing officials.

The parade step was "developed" by the Germans some time before WWI. I can't remember when (Ottoman Empire?)

Well, that's what I know on the subject. One of the posts referenced the goose step term. I wanted to post on the subject. If my info in incorrect, I'm sure we will see a post!

[alanint]

On the subject of Unregistered machineguns, here are some options.
- Report and turn it over to the local police, who will contact BATF, who will destroy it or the police will keep it for their inventory.
-Report it and turn it over to BATF, who will CERTAINLY destroy it unless it is rare enough to go into their reference collection.
Donate it to a recognized museum on a form 10, after advising BATF. The museum will display it, usually while recognizing it's history and donor and the donor will get to write off its determined market value on their tax return.
As one can see, the museum route is by far the best. I can help with getting these transfers done legally.
A few years ago a vet in our area revealed he had a very rare MkB42-(H) along with 500 rounds of ammo. We were not only able to handle this rare piece, but to shoot all the ammo through it and have it subsequently donated to the Springfield Armory, (Ma.) museum, where it holds a place of honor to this day.
These guns are much better off being preserved than destroyed. Don't be afraid to contact a local federally approved museum and arrange a transfer on a form 10. This is the only sane alternative until the long-awaited veteran's machinegun amnesty bill passes.
DougA

[alanint]

I forgot to mention the most appealing alternative of all. The new NFA section of the BATF, (as of about a year and one half ago) is not the old NFA branch of the BATF. Today, you can ask for a record search of the serial number of the gun in question. If by chance the vet registered the gun during the 1968 anmesty, you can request a copy of the paperwork. I recently legally acquired a dewatted Winchester 1918 BAR in this way, transferred it to a restorer from the estate on a form 5, who rewatted the gun and transferred it to me on a form 4. I now own a fully functional, legal piece of history.
Keep in mind that capture papers, treasury department registry and BATF 1968 amnesty registry are all legal form of firearm identification. You can buy and own these guns legally once all the paperwork is done.
Don't let ignorance of the admittedly complex registry system help destroy these wonderful historic artifacts.
DougA

[alvin]

Great stories! I noticed "capture paper" appeared many times..... one question regarding it: All capture papers that I've seen so far are WWII. Is it WWII specific? No capture paper for WWI .... at least I have not seen one yet. Any information? Thanks.

====

Deeper Qs:

. When was capture paper "invented"?
. What was the intention of capture paper?
. The stamp on it has big title "Headquarter....", but who actually issued those papers, based on what type of evidence?

[alanint]

Most of the "Capture Papers" I have seen are WW2,
I have seen a few Korean and Vietman War capture documents, but never involving full auto guns for these two conflicts.
World War 2 policy generally prohibited returning vets from bringing back full auto stuff, unless the vet had an official capture document. WW2 seems to be the only conflict where a full auto provision existed. (WW1 was wide open. see my above story on my Great Uncle's aquisition of a German MG. Up until the NFA act of 1934, VFW posts and other entities such as Post Offices and townships could apply for ordnance to display at their posts or memorial parks. The goverment would simply send them a cannon, mortar, MG or anything else they requested!!)
Capture papers can be described a an official form that allowed the unit as a whole to register and catalogue weapons that were either meant for the unit museum or reference collection or at the commanding officer's discretion, allowed for an individual soldier. With this paper in hand the Vet could bring back most any souvernir without fear of confiscation. Today these papers are considered a legal amnesty or "permit to own" by BATF. There is only a requirement to re register the gun under the new system.
In Vietnam, for example, Carlos Hathcock, the famous Marine Sniper turned in and tagged the Mosin Nagant carried by a NVA counter sniper tasked with killing Hathcock. This is the famous rifle where Hathcock shot his adversary clean through the entire scope. A feat replicated in the Tom Berringer movie "Sniper" Although the rifle was tagged to be legally brought home, it was stolen by a rear area type.
I also understand that General Norman Schwartzkoff (sp?) had a fully operational presentation AK on his office wall back in the US given to him by the Saudis after Gulf War 1. I doubt very much if that ever went through BATF registry.
There is a neat little newsreel on the web entitled something like"Majic Eye Spots GI Souvenirs" It deals with the first rudimentary x ray machines which were used to scan GIs luggage, especially inmediate post war occupation troops luggage, (which is when the vast majority of these larger guns entered the US. They were brought back by post war GIs with the time, means and opportunity to acquire them. Most combat troops just wanted to get home and rarely brought back more than a side arm).

[John Winter]

Both the amount and the variety of captured firearms shipped home from both theatres during WWII is truly amazing and many of these items are still surfacing. A revived amnesty of Class 3 war souvenirs would benefit everyone in the trade and decriminalize their possession by legitimate heirs.

In my experience, Lugers have always been the most sought after war trophy and their price has reflected that as far back as I can remember. In the mid 1950's, the knowledge base that we now have courtesy of published researchers didn't exist and little distinction was made between what is now rare and that which is common. Nice Lugers sold for $50-$65, which was nearly twice the value of a minty GI .45. To place this figure into its proper perspective, that was about the price of my first car. Jap collectors were pitied or still in high school and a box of 8 m/m Nambu was worth more than the gun. How times have changed!

Acording to ETO vets, Lugers were either bartered or sold to rear-echelon troops for anywhere from $50 to $100 cash or else exchanged for un-rationed cigarettes or good liquor. P.38's were popular with front line troops for practical reasons and used as combat implements. By the autumn of 1944, cigarettes had become the de facto currency of Europe and even small quantities of these could provide GI's with practically anything imaginable. Cigarettes remained the standard into the early 1950's and frequently continued to be traded for Lugers. It's interesting that while I purchased many Lugers from ETO vets, all had great capture stories and none of these guns had been gotten in trade. Bring-back papers were few and far between. It was fashionable in post-war Europe to demean the GI's who took these fine weapons home with them but the fact is, that had the GI's not done so, they wouldn't exist.

[railman44]

I'm retired now but my late ex-boss was a tank commander in Europe during the war. He and I more than once would sit up in a motel room late at night with a bottle of scotch talking about the war. Although he brought back a Luger he told me they [lugers] used to create some friction among his men. His solution to end the friction was to line the Lugers up and run over them with a Sherman (he never said, but I think this only happened once with him). I asked him what kind of Luger he brought back and got this deer in the headlight look. He looked at me a little frustrated and said "a Luger". I believe the vast majority of soldiers had no clue variations or different makers existed unless maybe they saw one with a long barrel and/or a shoulder stock...