SS-marking on luger - Page 3

Leon DeSpain · 12-22-2002, 11:05 PM

Hi MauserLugers,

I don't disagree with a thing you said.

But, it has only been in the last few years that a collector in Texas has had contact with a collector in England who has had contact with a collector in Germany. Before the Internet and this forum, I would not have known about the other two gentlemen.

That's something to think about, also.

Regards and Best Wishes for Happy Holidays, Leon

MauserLugers · 12-22-2002, 11:38 PM

Hi,
The internet has given guys like you and I access to other collectors all over the world and access to information -- I agree with this.

The major dealers and collectors have been traveling all over the world for years though and they know and have had contacts with most of the other major collectors. They have visited and looked at many collections and have contacts looking for them from motel buys to what is in auctions and museums and these SS marked examples were not around then. This shows just how widespread all this enhancing is in my opinion.

Guess it all gets down to just how optimistic one is. Kind of like the takedown tool thread where these faked tools are cheap and aren't hurting anything. When a real tool is found that doesn't fit the known examples it will always be considered a fake due to all the fakes floating around. And people say refurbished and reproduction stuff isn't hurting our hobby.

Jan Still wrote that when he published his book there were 32 known examples of the Mauser Military Police examples known in 1988 and when they became popular and in demand a "dealer" made up 100 of them of all examples. So there are more faked examples than known examples since 1988. Now, anytime you find a police Luger that is outside of the recorded serial numbers you are going to have a terrible time convincing anyone that it is real.

The ss runes on Lugers and tools are just like the example above that if there ever were any real ones, (which is very questionable) there are so many more faked ones than there ever were real ones that no one will believe any of them are real.

Leon DeSpain · 12-23-2002, 12:27 AM

MauserLugers,

All good points. Thanks.

Leon

Heydrich · 12-23-2002, 01:42 AM

It never ceases to amaze me the different perspectives that collectors and dealers bring to authentication. It has been my observation that collectable firearms sellers, Internet or otherwise, bitterly resent any objective arguments that even begin to question their wares. This seems to apply to firearms in the general market as well, because exposing fakes in a public forum such as this can (and does) cause market trepidation that might cost them money indirectly. Whether the item in question is for sale or not is irrelevant. (Hell, the owner may want to sell it eventually.) In a way, it’s in a dealer’s best interest (even if it’s not his item) to argue for uncertainty. The old, “It may be, or it may not be” that we see here. Because coming to a conclusion might be bad for business. And routine counter-arguments tend to always be the same, “Show me proof that it’s a fake”, or other such claptrap when they are well aware in advance that providing conclusive fakery proof for an oddball item is usually impossible. Makes me wonder if the lone dissenter to these obvious fakes is really seeking the truth here, or trying to prevent money-costing skepticism from creeping into the marketplace.

JohnF · 12-24-2002, 12:50 PM

This is very disappointing. I find that the last post is inflammatory in tone and very close to defamatory in meaning. For one forum member to call another's honesty and integrity in question is really very sad. We're all here to learn and trade information about a subject that brings us pleasure. To use the forum for in this way is demeaning and unnecessary.

wterrell · 12-24-2002, 07:30 PM

I have enjoyed reading these posts so much that I have refrained from contributing. However......Heydrich's last post has prompted me to comment on his insight. I am in agreement with his statements concerning dealers. And those dealers with enough integrity to offer honest evaluations must also be praised. Example: Thomas Heller

max2cam · 01-04-2003, 09:39 PM

It seems to me that with regard to ultra-rare (and thus ultra-valuable) Third Reich small arms variations -- esp. SS variations -- the field is pretty much ruined.

I base my opinion on the poorly documented nature of SS small arms in general and the skill that dishonest "boosters" exhibit when they "enhance" the value of a piece.

At this point in time one would have to be awfully trusting, lusting, or flush with cash to believe in any SS marked Luger or any other SS marked German small arm.

Dieter08 · 01-06-2003, 10:40 AM

It's a very long thread, and many different meanings. I don't know now what i should believe. During the last 40 years that gun was in private hand. Why should someone stamp such an old, rusty gun??? If a dealer does something like that, i think he would choose a very good gun to push the value. I payed a normal price, buyed it from a private person. Just my opinion. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

max2cam · 01-07-2003, 01:16 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Dieter08:
It's a very long thread, and many different meanings. I don't know now what i should believe. During the last 40 years that gun was in private hand. Why should someone stamp such an old, rusty gun??? If a dealer does something like that, i think he would choose a very good gun to push the value. I payed a normal price, buyed it from a private person. Just my opinion. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Dieter. I didn't mean to insinuate that your Luger is not authentic SS marked. Some must certainly be SS marked that are original and real. But in general there are enough faked ones running around that it appears impossible to know for sure.

Heinz · 01-07-2003, 08:30 PM

Deiter, the reason for boosting a pitted and well worn pistol is simple, without the counterfeit mark it has almost no value, a parts piece. With the mark it now is worth upwards of $500. And the natural inclination is to ask, why would anyone fake such a rough piece. When the pistol in question was purchased 40 years ago (1960s) it would have been a $25 or less gun without the runes.

12-24-2002, 07:30 PM	#46
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have enjoyed reading these posts so much that I have refrained from contributing. However......Heydrich's last post has prompted me to comment on his insight. I am in agreement with his statements concerning dealers. And those dealers with enough integrity to offer honest evaluations must also be praised. Example: Thomas Heller __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

01-07-2003, 01:16 PM	#49
max2cam User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: USA Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Dieter08: <strong>It's a very long thread, and many different meanings. I don't know now what i should believe. During the last 40 years that gun was in private hand. Why should someone stamp such an old, rusty gun??? If a dealer does something like that, i think he would choose a very good gun to push the value. I payed a normal price, buyed it from a private person. Just my opinion. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dieter. I didn't mean to insinuate that your Luger is not authentic SS marked. Some must certainly be SS marked that are original and real. But in general there are enough faked ones running around that it appears impossible to know for sure.

12-22-2002, 11:05 PM	#41
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	Hi MauserLugers, I don't disagree with a thing you said. But, it has only been in the last few years that a collector in Texas has had contact with a collector in England who has had contact with a collector in Germany. Before the Internet and this forum, I would not have known about the other two gentlemen. That's something to think about, also. Regards and Best Wishes for Happy Holidays, Leon

12-22-2002, 11:38 PM	#42
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Hi, The internet has given guys like you and I access to other collectors all over the world and access to information -- I agree with this. The major dealers and collectors have been traveling all over the world for years though and they know and have had contacts with most of the other major collectors. They have visited and looked at many collections and have contacts looking for them from motel buys to what is in auctions and museums and these SS marked examples were not around then. This shows just how widespread all this enhancing is in my opinion. Guess it all gets down to just how optimistic one is. Kind of like the takedown tool thread where these faked tools are cheap and aren't hurting anything. When a real tool is found that doesn't fit the known examples it will always be considered a fake due to all the fakes floating around. And people say refurbished and reproduction stuff isn't hurting our hobby. Jan Still wrote that when he published his book there were 32 known examples of the Mauser Military Police examples known in 1988 and when they became popular and in demand a "dealer" made up 100 of them of all examples. So there are more faked examples than known examples since 1988. Now, anytime you find a police Luger that is outside of the recorded serial numbers you are going to have a terrible time convincing anyone that it is real. The ss runes on Lugers and tools are just like the example above that if there ever were any real ones, (which is very questionable) there are so many more faked ones than there ever were real ones that no one will believe any of them are real.

12-23-2002, 12:27 AM	#43
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	MauserLugers, All good points. Thanks. Leon

12-23-2002, 01:42 AM	#44
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It never ceases to amaze me the different perspectives that collectors and dealers bring to authentication. It has been my observation that collectable firearms sellers, Internet or otherwise, bitterly resent any objective arguments that even begin to question their wares. This seems to apply to firearms in the general market as well, because exposing fakes in a public forum such as this can (and does) cause market trepidation that might cost them money indirectly. Whether the item in question is for sale or not is irrelevant. (Hell, the owner may want to sell it eventually.) In a way, it’s in a dealer’s best interest (even if it’s not his item) to argue for uncertainty. The old, “It may be, or it may not be” that we see here. Because coming to a conclusion might be bad for business. And routine counter-arguments tend to always be the same, “Show me proof that it’s a fake”, or other such claptrap when they are well aware in advance that providing conclusive fakery proof for an oddball item is usually impossible. Makes me wonder if the lone dissenter to these obvious fakes is really seeking the truth here, or trying to prevent money-costing skepticism from creeping into the marketplace.

12-24-2002, 12:50 PM	#45
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	This is very disappointing. I find that the last post is inflammatory in tone and very close to defamatory in meaning. For one forum member to call another's honesty and integrity in question is really very sad. We're all here to learn and trade information about a subject that brings us pleasure. To use the forum for in this way is demeaning and unnecessary.

01-04-2003, 09:39 PM	#47
max2cam User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: USA Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It seems to me that with regard to ultra-rare (and thus ultra-valuable) Third Reich small arms variations -- esp. SS variations -- the field is pretty much ruined. I base my opinion on the poorly documented nature of SS small arms in general and the skill that dishonest "boosters" exhibit when they "enhance" the value of a piece. At this point in time one would have to be awfully trusting, lusting, or flush with cash to believe in any SS marked Luger or any other SS marked German small arm.

01-06-2003, 10:40 AM	#48
Dieter08 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It's a very long thread, and many different meanings. I don't know now what i should believe. During the last 40 years that gun was in private hand. Why should someone stamp such an old, rusty gun??? If a dealer does something like that, i think he would choose a very good gun to push the value. I payed a normal price, buyed it from a private person. Just my opinion. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />

01-07-2003, 08:30 PM	#50
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Deiter, the reason for boosting a pitted and well worn pistol is simple, without the counterfeit mark it has almost no value, a parts piece. With the mark it now is worth upwards of $500. And the natural inclination is to ask, why would anyone fake such a rough piece. When the pistol in question was purchased 40 years ago (1960s) it would have been a $25 or less gun without the runes.