Luger I found... PRISTINE

historybuffguy@aol.com · 08-12-2003, 01:07 PM

Hello....

I am new to this forum... and hope I was able to post it correctly....

I always liked WWII military weapons, and once in a while find items at estate/yard sales, etc. I am not a gun expert, and more or less keep items that hit me the right way...

I am sure people have used the word "MINT" too often to describe a gun in excellent condition.... but the Luger I found is truely PRISTINE MINT.

The steel parts that aren't blued, are gold in color and the grips are flawless. The gun was not reblued and/or refinished.

The numbers match (54410) and the clip has a wooden bottom. The most unusual thing about the gun, is that the barrel is stamped: : "Manfacture Francaise d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etianne."

What is it.... and can someone give me a general idea on what it's worth? I would be happy to e-mail a bunch of photos directly to those who can help me out...

Thanks for your help.... Robert...

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger1.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger12.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger5.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger6.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger7.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger11.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger13.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger14.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger17.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger18.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger19.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger21.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger27.jpg

policeluger · 08-12-2003, 01:57 PM

WOW...the things dreams are made of....only about 5 or 6 examples are known. This thread is going too be fun too watch....

John Sabato · 08-12-2003, 02:08 PM

Robert this is clearly a fairly unique Luger... I would recommend that you create a member gallery album and post all your photographs there for examination by the forum.

Submit high quality jpeg files as there is no size limitation and the photos are automatically thumbnailed for viewing... but the hi-res originals are available to those who choose to examine them.

I am sure there will be many comments on your Luger. May I ask was this really a yard sale gun? or, if not, whose estate did it come out of?

Welcome to the Lugerforum.

historybuffguy@aol.com · 08-12-2003, 02:20 PM

Thanks JS for your comments....

I actually found it at a local flea market... Weapons are not allowed to be sold at our flea markets... but I noticed a small sign that said Luger for sale for $500....

I said: "I assume the Luger is at home"... and they said it's in their truck.

When I first saw the Luger, I was disappointed... I thought it was a brand new import of some kind from France. The gun is that pristine. The DWM mark, small crowns, and wood bottom to the clip made be think it's much older.

I asked if they are firm on the price, and they said they would take $450 for it.... and I offered them $400... to which they said if they don't sell it by 10:30 am... his wife would make him sell it for that amount.

I live in Phoenix, and it was hot as heck Sunday. 116 degrees!! The bank did not open till 10 am, and I saw the gun at 8:15 am, and only had $85 on me.

I don't have an ATM card, but called a friend on my cell to go to his ATM and take some money out...

I came back an hour later.... and offered the $400... and they went for it. I thought if the Luger was new... it had to be worth at least $400...

It appears I finally got lucky...

I will try to list it on the board.... but am still learning how to post...

policeluger · 08-12-2003, 02:53 PM

Man...you are upsetting a few of us, I would place this a $5,000.00+....easy. I would have sold myself...like I could....and given him the 500 and bought him lunch.

historybuffguy@aol.com · 08-12-2003, 03:07 PM

Wow.....

Yes.... I'll treat my friend out to dinner for sure...... :-)

John Sabato · 08-12-2003, 03:10 PM

A Member Gallery album has been created that contains Robert's photos of this excellent Luger...

historybuffguy@aol.com · 08-12-2003, 03:24 PM

Hello John...

Thanks for your help on creating a Member Gallery.....

I just e-mailed you at the address you requested.....

Thanks again... Robert... :-)

Jim Keenan · 08-12-2003, 09:32 PM

I am curious. Is the $5k estimate based solely on the superb quality of the pistol or partly on its previous ownership by the French company? Is this a case where an "after factory" marking does not detract from the value?

Jim

saxman · 08-12-2003, 09:40 PM

Could someone please elucidate on this pistol? Evidently many of you have heard of such things, but some of us have not. Basically, what's up with it?

Pete Ebbink · 08-12-2003, 10:08 PM

Here is a bit of info. from Sam Costanzo's book on Luger proofmarks; from page 234.

Do not know if this theory is dated or still valid. Will wait for the experts to reply...

My luger-buddy, Doc, has borrowed my John Walter's book, The Luger Book, so I cannot look up what Walter might have written about these guns...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

historybuffguy@aol.com · 08-12-2003, 10:17 PM

I really appreciate the info. on this Luger.... So... it was made in 1906? Any idea how many were made? Thanks again... Robert..

Pete Ebbink · 08-12-2003, 10:17 PM

Hello HistoryBuffGuy,

I think that selling couple deserves a nice gift certificate to one of Phoenix' nicest restaurants...IMHO...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Herb · 08-12-2003, 10:31 PM

What a find!!! You realize that you are now truely "hooked" as forever more you will never be able to pass up a flea market, garage sale, swap meet, or other type action without stopping and searching for another bargain. It'll be pretty hard to beat that one. Congratulations. <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" />

historybuffguy@aol.com · 08-12-2003, 10:34 PM

I don't know if I will see that couple again at the flea market.... I go fairly often, and did not recognize them...

I am afraid if I tell them I was very pleased with the purchase, the husband will get really angry with his wife for selling it for so low...

The seller thought it was a "Swiss Luger" when he showed it to me. I thought so too.... but the French writing made me think it was French made..

Robert

saxman · 08-12-2003, 10:41 PM

Holy cow! No wonder you guys flipped out. To show up at a flea market....it's like an urban legend or something. This is like finding the other trial .45. I don't think $5K would even start the bidding if were sold. To have survived 93 years in that condition out in the world is beyond imagination. Historybuffguy just made Luger history.

historybuffguy@aol.com · 08-12-2003, 10:45 PM

Thanks Herb.....

Like I mentioned earlier... I finally got lucky.... I hear estate sale finds fairly often for various collectibles... but it was always the other guy who finds something...

I now feel if you look hard enough... cool things are to be found... Robert...

Ron Wood · 08-12-2003, 11:35 PM

This is like finding a winning lottery ticket! What a fantastic stroke of luck. It is a beautiful specimen just by virtue of its condition. The rarity is outstanding. In 1969 when Kenyon published "Lugers at Random", only two examples were known at that time. I have no idea how many more have surfaced, but it can't be many.

This Luger needs to be examined by an expert. As far as I know it is 100% authentic, and the purchase price virtually guarantees it. However there are a couple of things that need to be checked out. The example shown in Kenyon is serial number 51544. That is roughly 3000 numbers lower than this Luger. That seems like a pretty wide spread for a limited production gun, but not necessarily incorrect since special commercial sales were not assured of being consecutively numbered or even delivered as one lot. The other observation is that Kenyon states that the inscription of the French firm was made prior to finishing the Luger. In the photos, this Luger appears to have a "halo" effect around the firm inscription, which would indicate application "through the blue" after the piece was finished. This may be an illusion caused by the photo, or the example(s) observed by Kenyon may have already been refinished thus giving the appearance of having been roll die stamped before finishing.

In any event, this is a very important find and needs to be properly evaluated and appraised. If authenticated, it is going to fetch close to five figures.

historybuffguy@aol.com · 08-12-2003, 11:40 PM

WoW.... I will try to post a better photo of the barrel markings....

I will be able to post it tomorrow morning.... Thanks Ron..... you guys are great on this site... Robert...

Herb · 08-12-2003, 11:54 PM

Since you live in Phoenix, getting an accurate appraisal is going to be easy. Contact Ralph Shattuck out in Peoria, he is one of the worlds leading collectors/dealers and he does appraisals. He and Nancy will most assuredly be going to the Big Reno Show this weekend and will be setting up on Thursday so he might not be available right away. Contact info---Web site- http://www.worldoflugers.com
Address-- 19044 N. 98th Lane, Peoria --phone--623-566-0551--email--Ralph@WorldOfLugers.com
if you do get a good estimate keep it to yourself until everyone here has exhausted thier guesstimates. If Ralph is at the show I'll let him know you will probably be contacting him.
About the seller, if you ever see them again just walk on by, unless you like to see grown men cry.

08-12-2003, 01:07 PM	#1
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luger I found... PRISTINE Hello.... I am new to this forum... and hope I was able to post it correctly.... I always liked WWII military weapons, and once in a while find items at estate/yard sales, etc. I am not a gun expert, and more or less keep items that hit me the right way... I am sure people have used the word "MINT" too often to describe a gun in excellent condition.... but the Luger I found is truely PRISTINE MINT. The steel parts that aren't blued, are gold in color and the grips are flawless. The gun was not reblued and/or refinished. The numbers match (54410) and the clip has a wooden bottom. The most unusual thing about the gun, is that the barrel is stamped: : "Manfacture Francaise d'Armes & Cycles de Saint-Etianne." What is it.... and can someone give me a general idea on what it's worth? I would be happy to e-mail a bunch of photos directly to those who can help me out... Thanks for your help.... Robert... http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger1.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger12.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger5.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger6.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger7.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger11.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger13.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger14.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger17.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger18.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger19.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger21.jpg http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger27.jpg

08-12-2003, 02:08 PM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Robert this is clearly a fairly unique Luger... I would recommend that you create a member gallery album and post all your photographs there for examination by the forum. Submit high quality jpeg files as there is no size limitation and the photos are automatically thumbnailed for viewing... but the hi-res originals are available to those who choose to examine them. I am sure there will be many comments on your Luger. May I ask was this really a yard sale gun? or, if not, whose estate did it come out of? Welcome to the Lugerforum. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-12-2003, 03:10 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	A Member Gallery album has been created that contains Robert's photos of this excellent Luger... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-12-2003, 09:40 PM	#10
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Could someone please elucidate on this pistol? Evidently many of you have heard of such things, but some of us have not. Basically, what's up with it? __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

08-12-2003, 10:31 PM	#14
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	What a find!!! You realize that you are now truely "hooked" as forever more you will never be able to pass up a flea market, garage sale, swap meet, or other type action without stopping and searching for another bargain. It'll be pretty hard to beat that one. Congratulations. <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-12-2003, 01:57 PM	#2
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	WOW...the things dreams are made of....only about 5 or 6 examples are known. This thread is going too be fun too watch....

08-12-2003, 02:20 PM	#4
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks JS for your comments.... I actually found it at a local flea market... Weapons are not allowed to be sold at our flea markets... but I noticed a small sign that said Luger for sale for $500.... I said: "I assume the Luger is at home"... and they said it's in their truck. When I first saw the Luger, I was disappointed... I thought it was a brand new import of some kind from France. The gun is that pristine. The DWM mark, small crowns, and wood bottom to the clip made be think it's much older. I asked if they are firm on the price, and they said they would take $450 for it.... and I offered them $400... to which they said if they don't sell it by 10:30 am... his wife would make him sell it for that amount. I live in Phoenix, and it was hot as heck Sunday. 116 degrees!! The bank did not open till 10 am, and I saw the gun at 8:15 am, and only had $85 on me. I don't have an ATM card, but called a friend on my cell to go to his ATM and take some money out... I came back an hour later.... and offered the $400... and they went for it. I thought if the Luger was new... it had to be worth at least $400... It appears I finally got lucky... I will try to list it on the board.... but am still learning how to post...

08-12-2003, 02:53 PM	#5
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Man...you are upsetting a few of us, I would place this a $5,000.00+....easy. I would have sold myself...like I could....and given him the 500 and bought him lunch.

08-12-2003, 03:07 PM	#6
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wow..... Yes.... I'll treat my friend out to dinner for sure...... :-)

08-12-2003, 03:24 PM	#8
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello John... Thanks for your help on creating a Member Gallery..... I just e-mailed you at the address you requested..... Thanks again... Robert... :-)

08-12-2003, 09:32 PM	#9
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I am curious. Is the $5k estimate based solely on the superb quality of the pistol or partly on its previous ownership by the French company? Is this a case where an "after factory" marking does not detract from the value? Jim

08-12-2003, 10:08 PM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Here is a bit of info. from Sam Costanzo's book on Luger proofmarks; from page 234. Do not know if this theory is dated or still valid. Will wait for the experts to reply... My luger-buddy, Doc, has borrowed my John Walter's book, The Luger Book, so I cannot look up what Walter might have written about these guns... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-12-2003, 10:17 PM	#12
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I really appreciate the info. on this Luger.... So... it was made in 1906? Any idea how many were made? Thanks again... Robert..

08-12-2003, 10:34 PM	#15
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I don't know if I will see that couple again at the flea market.... I go fairly often, and did not recognize them... I am afraid if I tell them I was very pleased with the purchase, the husband will get really angry with his wife for selling it for so low... The seller thought it was a "Swiss Luger" when he showed it to me. I thought so too.... but the French writing made me think it was French made.. Robert

08-12-2003, 10:41 PM	#16
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Holy cow! No wonder you guys flipped out. To show up at a flea market....it's like an urban legend or something. This is like finding the other trial .45. I don't think $5K would even start the bidding if were sold. To have survived 93 years in that condition out in the world is beyond imagination. Historybuffguy just made Luger history. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

08-12-2003, 10:45 PM	#17
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Herb..... Like I mentioned earlier... I finally got lucky.... I hear estate sale finds fairly often for various collectibles... but it was always the other guy who finds something... I now feel if you look hard enough... cool things are to be found... Robert...

08-12-2003, 11:35 PM	#18
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	This is like finding a winning lottery ticket! What a fantastic stroke of luck. It is a beautiful specimen just by virtue of its condition. The rarity is outstanding. In 1969 when Kenyon published "Lugers at Random", only two examples were known at that time. I have no idea how many more have surfaced, but it can't be many. This Luger needs to be examined by an expert. As far as I know it is 100% authentic, and the purchase price virtually guarantees it. However there are a couple of things that need to be checked out. The example shown in Kenyon is serial number 51544. That is roughly 3000 numbers lower than this Luger. That seems like a pretty wide spread for a limited production gun, but not necessarily incorrect since special commercial sales were not assured of being consecutively numbered or even delivered as one lot. The other observation is that Kenyon states that the inscription of the French firm was made prior to finishing the Luger. In the photos, this Luger appears to have a "halo" effect around the firm inscription, which would indicate application "through the blue" after the piece was finished. This may be an illusion caused by the photo, or the example(s) observed by Kenyon may have already been refinished thus giving the appearance of having been roll die stamped before finishing. In any event, this is a very important find and needs to be properly evaluated and appraised. If authenticated, it is going to fetch close to five figures. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-12-2003, 11:40 PM	#19
historybuffguy@aol.com User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Phoenix Posts: 37 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	WoW.... I will try to post a better photo of the barrel markings.... I will be able to post it tomorrow morning.... Thanks Ron..... you guys are great on this site... Robert...

08-12-2003, 11:54 PM	#20
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Since you live in Phoenix, getting an accurate appraisal is going to be easy. Contact Ralph Shattuck out in Peoria, he is one of the worlds leading collectors/dealers and he does appraisals. He and Nancy will most assuredly be going to the Big Reno Show this weekend and will be setting up on Thursday so he might not be available right away. Contact info---Web site- http://www.worldoflugers.com Address-- 19044 N. 98th Lane, Peoria --phone--623-566-0551--email--Ralph@WorldOfLugers.com if you do get a good estimate keep it to yourself until everyone here has exhausted thier guesstimates. If Ralph is at the show I'll let him know you will probably be contacting him. About the seller, if you ever see them again just walk on by, unless you like to see grown men cry. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull