Hoax?? (long)

[Patrick]

I would advise you not to take Marvin�´s contribution "Wood Grips vs Plastic Grips - When" particularly seriously. When I first read it, I immediately took it to be a joke - and it seems that a number of other contributors were not prepared to believe it either.


As you know, August Weiss, who was production manager at Mauser and was also responsible for the transfer of Luger production from DWM in Berlin, is no longer alive. G�¶rtz was responsible for finding and interviewing Weiss, who also published his detailed notes and his diary for the war period.


There is no further information that was not contained in his notes and in these diaries. Suffice to say that there is no mention of Marvin�´s report in any of these documents.


Helgoland (not "Holigoland") is a minute island in the North Sea, approximately 35 statute miles from the nearest German coastline. The outcrop of rock once belonged to Denmark, was captured by Britain and given to Germany in exchange for Sansibar. Only a small fishing community lived there before WWII - and they also lived off shipwrecks and piracy. Germany needed the island to protect its North Sea harbours and the small population was evacuated.It would have been all but impossible to introduce plastic production facilities to the island at that time. The island was heavily fortified and was one of the few places where THERE WAS NO CONCETRATION CAMP.


Ms Reitsch was one of a coterie of lesbians who professed infatuation for Adolf Hitler. This was possibly hysteria, but also opportune, as even the insinuation of being homosexual was sufficient as an entry qualification to the death camps. After she was captured by US forces in Bavaria, she changed her allegiance to the Holy Ghost and became a religious maniac. Reitsch was a test pilot who preferred to fly suicide missions. She demonstrated the world�´s first helicopter inside the Deutschlandhalle and came close to death as the vehicle had no tail rotor. Hitler was standing underneath and the Gestapo suspected that Reitsch might have intended to kill the F�¼hrer in a suicide attempt. R. also test flew the V1 flying bomb. During the last days of the war, Reitsch waited in her Fieseler Storch aircraft in front of the F�¼hrer bunker and left only minutes before the Russians captured the airstrip. Her diaries have also been published and there is absolutely no record of her flight to Helgoland etc.


Neither is there substantiation for the claim that the SS had a monopoly on the colour black. This is a total myth. Black leather was used extensively for leather equipment throughout the Wehrmacht and German Panzer personnel wore black. G�¶rtz has gone into the change from brown to black grips at great length. He found that brown plastic used more expensive and rare raw materials, whereas black plastic was cheaper to make. The industrial soot provided a more uniform colour.


The cuckoo (not "cookoo") clock manufacturer and the trick cyclist put the finishing touches on quite a good hoax (I�´m almost envious and might try something similar myself some day). The remaining question is: did Marvin concoct this or was it someone in Germany. I have been living here for over twenty years and have never yet experienced a German sense of humour.


Is this an attempt to expose the credulity of the Luger Board?


Patrick

[tom]

A very well written analysis of what on its face should have been instantly recognizable as a farce. Someone has a very fertile imagination indeed.


Tom

In quickly reading this analysis and not knowing the history of the characters mentioned, I got taken in. Good one. Thanks for the clarification. As always, don't believe everything you read.

[John Sabato]

Thank you so much Patrick for your clarifications on several issues. We all appreciate your extensive research efforts, as we do Marvin's. Thanks to Marvin as well.


I, myself, not being knowledgable enough in this area to have commented or have known the truth without my own research, was also taken in... and if asked would have passed this information on to others in the future as what I believed to be true...


I am certain that Marvin was not the originator of this disinformation, but merely an unsuspecting courier...and based on conversations with him over the last 3 years, I don't think him capable of deliberate deception on a matter as serious as this would be to Luger shooters, collectors and enthusiasts. This information probably changed hands several times before it came to him, and there would be no way to determine at what point it was transmitted with a smirk.


Much information that is passed on from one to another is frequently a consensus, rather than traceable to an authoritative or published source.


The institutional knowledge of this forum is something we are all responsible to police if we are to remain a credible source of valued information on our common interest. I trust that our good friend Marvin will not be reluctant to bring information to the forum in the future because a source proved faulty in one instance. I also hope that you will continue your excellent research efforts "at the source" for many years to come.


Someone has obviously had a good laugh at Marvin's well intentioned expense...


just my 2 pfennig!


-John

[Dok]

It caught me too... but then I'm still pretty much a newbie, so that's pretty easy to do. I'm sure Marvin wouldn't waste my time like that posting that data if he knew it was a hoax...

[John D.]

I find it absolutely amazing that there are those who would portray Marvinâ??s post as anything other then what it clearly was - an honest attempt to share â??informationâ?� among this group of enthusiasts and collectors. To stigmatize it as a â??charadeâ?� or an â??intentional misrepresentationâ?� by some is not only an unconscionable oversight â?? but goes against every aspect that is the foundation of not only this Forum â?? but on a larger scale â?? conflicts with the principles within the collecting world itself.


In todayâ??s world of collecting Lugers â?? there are few â??factsâ?�, as those who have first-hand knowledge of the â??factsâ?� are typically dead and buried. Therefore â?? our "knowledge" is predicated on our capability to share and develop a thesis about those â??unknownâ?� issues to only get closer to â??the factsâ?�. During those discussions, thesesâ?? are developed from various sources, references, compilations of documents, and most importantly, level-headed and mature discussions about those same aspects of the point in question. That is what I *thought* this Forum was all about â?? simply a technology to facilitate the discussion those same â??thesisâ?� so we could all come closer to the truth on any open topic.


However â?? grossly self-serving statements such as anyoneâ??s post â??is a jokeâ?�, or â??I got taken inâ?�, etc. â?? amounts to little more then an intentional character assassination about someone who is honestly trying to share information that they believe is plausible. That it is directed towards Marvin specifically, I find distasteful at best. Simply look at the time, effort and information he has taken the time to unselfishly assemble and share within this Forum alone. And if it were another who was attacked â?? I would have a similar reaction, admittedly perhaps not as vehement, for I have met Marvin and know him to be more then forthright and the embodiment of what â??collectingâ?� is all about.


What a shame that people take it upon themselves to attack the person and their credibility - rather then simply presenting a counter argument to the thesis itself. Even more of a shame is the fact, that should someone have their own findings to present on an aspect of Luger collecting â?? they will certainly think twice about sharing it within this â??communityâ?�. In that case â?? we all lose.


To the question poised as to whether Marvinâ??s post was intentional to â??expose the credulity of the Luger Boardâ?� â?? I would say it is how specificially his post is responded to - rather then attacking the person himself. So far, I do not hold out much hope on either point.


And yes â?? I am primarily of German descent. And yes â?? I do have a sense of humor when the situation warrants one. In this case â?? it does not - nor do I.


- RANT OFF

[Thor]

Dont shoot the messager! Marvin wont be around until Thursday/Friday Thor

[Dok]

until Marvin can have a chance to respond... then we'll all know a lot more.


Dok

Hanna Reitsch was most certainly NOT a lesbian.

That is propaganda.

She *was*, however, the most decorated female in the history of the Reich, having won two Iron Crosses, both 1st and 2nd class.

After the war, she went to Uganda to teach Idi Amin's air force pilots to fly, as they were the only country to allow her a pilot's license, because of her refusal to renounce her "politically incorrect" politics.


She did NOT prefer suicide missions, but had only suggested them as a last ditch stand to protect the Fatherland. By the time Hitler concurred, there was not a target in reach that was worth wasting a trained German pilot's life on.


She had carte blanche from Hitler personally, to fly any in service or test aircraft that Germany had.

She flew the Komet rocket plane, the V1, the Me262, as well as the world's first helicopter exhibition........yes, INDOORS!

She held distance, as well as speed records, and was one heck of a fine flyer, not some lesbo groupie, as you imagine.

Please research this fine pilot's life a bit before you defame her with silly wartime propaganda.


With Kind Regards,

Hannah (a relative of Hanna's)

[Dok]

We know not whence this information came. No one here was trying to defame anyone, and as I mentioned earlier, comment on this topic should be held, until we know more about it's origin.


Dok

[bill m]

Hi,

I find the fact that everyone jumped on Marvins information very interesting. I was one of the first to dispute it, but did not get much support. It was very apparent that this was some sort of a hoax, but Marvin honestly just passed it on, thinking he had discovered the actual usage of the grips. I keep speaking about logic and the order of things, and this just did not fit. If you are not an advanced collector that is very knowledgable in Mausers, you will just gobble all this up as pure fact. We have to use our heads here and not take everything that is printed, whether it be in a book, or article or ect., as all fact. That is what is so disturbing to me, that we are not thinking on our own, but putting too much faith in what others think, or have printed or ect. Most of the books are old and there is a lot more information out there now. The only way that we know how things were, is to collect data -- getting stuff directly from the veterans -- and comparing. That has given us "the order" of things. That is what all the books are based on -- "the order" of things.

[Hugh]

[Marvin]

Dok,


Thanks, but no comment, I will find out the truth about the info soon for myself. Over & out


Marvin