Reproduction Snail Drum - progress

[DonVoigt]

Phil,
I won't attempt to "write" how I wind the drum, but will say it includes taking up some movement and then shifting my grip and drum orientation so that I can use my right hand and thumb to have better control, and then press down the latch to hold the arm in its catch- then IMMEDIATELY close the extended arm of the lever. That way if something goes south that "scythe" is not waiting to break your fingers.

I worry not so much about the winding, but the off chance that the locking button may fail!

I'm not sure I could wind the drum if I were left handed though.

[PhilOhio]

Don,

That's exactly what I do, and why. That unfolded arm is my biggest worry, and I get it latched ASAP. I guess there are only so many ways you can wind these, and we came to the same conclusions.

Despite not having used the drum in a pistol yet, I have examined, wound, unwound, loaded, and unloaded it a number of times.

Phil

[PhilOhio]

I hope the results of my first shot at snail drum use might be of value to some of you also, as my self education proceeds.

I have to say I was skeptical. This is an original 1917 drum, but the loader is my own, made based on pictures I found on the Internet. I've never handled one. But mine is more heavy duty than the originals, machined from solids and bar stock, with pins and links held by C-clips. I'll post a picture sometime if anybody is interested. After Parkerizing, it looked pretty good.

I generously greased the internals with G.E. electric motor grease, which is long lasting and medium light weight.

I have some fairly valuable guns, and a personal rule is to never run a jacketed bullet through the bore of any of a Luger or Thompson, and hold the power down to what is necessary to operate the action reliably. And start low.

Although I cast a number of 9mm bullets, I use only the correct German WW-II shape for the Lugers. It is nominally 125 grains and comes from Lee's double cavity #356-125-2R mold. I size them to .357", for use in both 9mm and .357 bores. This works just fine, and there is no chance of getting a bulge in an in-spec 9mm case. Accuracy is also just about perfect, from a good Luger bore.

One of my favorite range loads, for target shooting in other 9mm pistols like the SIG P-210, is 3.5 gr. W-231 behind this bullet, but the energy is minimal for reliable action cycling. I wanted to see how this would work in my 1917 DWM Artillery Luger. I doubted that it would fully cycle.

And I have found over the years that it is good to load rounds to the full overall length (OAL) of 1.169" for Lugers.

So I may have been trying more variables at one time than is best, but I did, and was happily surprised.

Using an original holster and stock rig, I shot paper from a bench at 50 feet. Wow! It worked. And I had one big ragged hole, with 40 rounds through it in the end.

But a little honesty here. I had 3 - 4 failures to feed, all the same, and all caused by exactly what I expected. 3.5 gr. of W-231 was not quite enough for the Luger. The failures all resulted when the empty did not fully eject, but a new round was picked up...the important point being that the drum was feeding.

One thing I did notice was lead bullet nose drag, while loading. This convinced me more than ever that good recoil is important to keep these drums running. Jacketed bullets would not drag that way, but they are a little bit harder on bores...not much, but enough to make me not use them.

So I loaded up 50 more rounds of the same bullet, but with my Harbor Freight Red powder coating and a light Alox coating on top of that; ain't nothing slicker. And I boosted the charge to 4.0 gr. of W-231, which is still Sierra's minimal recommendation for the 125 gr. bullet.

I also loaded these a bit shorter, to 1.090" OAL, to see if that would help minimize nose drag friction on the upper part of the straight mag.

I wouldn't be surprised if the thing runs 100% when I have the time to try again in a few days.

[DonVoigt]

Why no jacketed bullets in a luger?
or a Thompson for that matter?

They were both designed to use them and lead bullets would be problematic for either, JMHO.

As you point out, the lead bullet drag issue.

And yes, the luger needs a standard load, not a reduced one if you want it to cycle.

Good job on the drum!

A lot of fun, right?

[PhilOhio]

Don,

You're absolutely right about both types being designed for jacketed bullets, but the harder copper alloy jackets do cause more bore wear. When both guns and barrels are easily replaced, this is no big consideration. When that is no longer the case, and they are valuable collector items where condition is everything, it's a different ball game.

In the Thompson, you are putting a lot of rounds out there in a short time, so the wear factor goes up fast. Thompsons have very shallow rifling. On the early and most valuable ones from Colt, barrels were numbered to receivers in a secret marking place. In guns worth $25,000 to $40,000 on today's market, bore wear is not something to be sneezed at. Some in our collector group pay no attention to this. I have a different opinion. I have seen enough worn out barrels to be a believer. Same with Lugers. What a shame to trash a pristine bore by shooting too much Winchester White Label or something similar through it. Sometimes fun has a price I would rather not pay.

I shoot what I own, even the rare ones. Good lead bullets, with good modern lubricants, cause no problems of any kind in any type of barrel. And they cause virtually no bore wear, compared to jacketed ones. With today's lubricants, I can shoot them in gas-operated high-power semiauto rifles with no problems of any kind, despite all the "expert" opinions to the contrary. I've done a lot of that. They are usually more accurate, and tolerances are more easily controlled and fine tuned. I've been making and shooting them in almost 50 calibers and weights now for 57 years.

I do swage a number of jacketed specialty types, but only for certain handguns and rifles in the 3200 to 4200 foot per second range.

I have a number of guns and, in my opinion, the Luger requires more attention to load tailoring than any of them. But when you get it right, it stays right. I hope my load research for the drum works out to be the same.

Fun? Yep, tons of it. And you learn so much, as must have been the case 100 years ago when they were designing these things. I've had my drum, the artillery, and the holster/stock rig since 1964, but was never able to shoot the drum until now. Been shooting Lugers since '59, and have three. Yet there's always more to learn.

And more fun.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Phil, Shooting collectable Lugers and you are worried about bore wear? DWM Artillery's are prone to parts breakage..I have broken a half dozen DWM Lugers over the years but never wore out a bore. Shooting collector Lugers is like motorcycling. Not IF you are going to crash..when is the question. I have shooter guns, Artillery, Navy and regular 4 inch pistols. Replacing parts when they break is fairly simple but on a collector Luger? You should think about re adjusting priorities.

[DonVoigt]

Phil,
I'd shoot a "cheaper" Thompson!

Bore condition in a luger is generally not an issue with respect to value- unless it is a sewer pipe!

You have convinced yourself of the bore wear issue, but I really doubt you could fire a luger enough to measure any wear from copper jacketed bullets.

Thompson for sure has shallow rifling- and the barrel is tough to change.

No reason not to have a shooter upper for your luger though, they are relatively cheap and none of those pesky registration issue to slow you down.

[PhilOhio]

You're absolutely right, and I couldn't agree with you more. I guess it was unclear what my priorities are.

I have not fired that artillery in about 30 years, and the drum never. I'm not convinced that the artilleries are especially prone to much breakage, but I don't intend to try to find out. I didn't buy the pistol to shoot tin cans with a snail drum magazine.

I set out to make a drum loader, stronger than the original, to see if it and the whole rig would work together one more time after 100 years. They did. I'm satisfied. Nothing broke. That's the end of that. Some might think that was a lot of work for not much. But I found out what I wanted to know, at a low risk which I was willing to take.

I have a very nice S/42 which I bought with a shot out bore, just for shooting. I replaced the barrel. I may test the drum a couple more times in that pistol, to test my theories about bullets and loads. And then it's unlikely that the drum will ever be wound again. I do think that original drum design has a lot of potential for breakage and user injury.

Bore wear is real. I know how to reduce even minimal wear to almost zero, with the added benefits of better accuracy, dramatically lower cost, better reliability, and better component availability in tight market times. I didn't read it on the Internet, but learned all those things over 57 years of loading for hundreds of guns for almost 50 cartridge variations. So my use of such ammo in the guns I most care about is very purposeful and, I think, well informed.

It's about fun, but I agree with your thoughts about that fun not having an unacceptable price tag.

I have another Luger which has taken part in some historical events, and has taken a toll in lives. I've owned it for 40 years and feel it should never be fired again, after what happened when the previous owner pulled the trigger the last time, long ago and far away...before presenting it to me on a very emotional occasion for both of us. It's about keeping things in perspective, and I try to.

Lugers never seem to stop increasing in value, and so does my appreciation of them. I bought the 1937 S/42 about 10 years ago specifically for shooting and barrel replacement, because I didn't consider it rare enough to not do that. Now my thinking even on that is evolving in a more conservative direction. Matching numbered parts do break, and I have no shortage of more common contemporary pistols for play time plinking.

[PhilOhio]

And Don, both you and Jerry are probably right about my misplaced concern regarding bore wear. But I am 100% certain that my hand loaded ammo does not cause wear or stress greater than the commercial stuff. So using it, at the least, makes me feel better...reducing my stress and bore pressure.

[DavidJayUden]

" I do think that original drum design has a lot of potential for breakage and user injury. "

I have little time in with the snail drums, and all of that is with the repros. Please explain the potential for user injury.
Thanks!
dju

[PhilOhio]

David,

It's about that very strong spring, and the winding lever. Don and I discussed it earlier in this thread.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Phil, I'm not convinced that the artilleries are especially prone to much breakage. Not only Artillery's but ANY DWM Luger pistol. Mauser thought they were so prone to breakage they changed the design in a half dozen areas just to try and prevent it.

[PhilOhio]

Jerry,

That sounds like what happens when any model is distributed in such large numbers that the smallest design, material, or manufacturing defect is going to show up sooner or later, even in very small numbers. And no group of people was more dedicated to trying to do it right, and continuously improve whatever it was. And Hitler had to screw it all up for them.

It's interesting to look at many models of contemporary western pistols in that light, old time German quality standards. I guess it's why all of us here regard lugers the way we do.

I was taking this Lange Pistole apart to clean it, marveling at the fit, finish, metallurgy, ergonomics. 100 years have passed, and it's as useful, functional, and pleasing to own and use as it was to several generations now dead. How many products, of any kind, can you say that about?

[lugerholsterrepair]

Phil, True! The Luger is ephemeral. It's brilliance will shine on for many more decades..as long as there is interest in the fine art of mechanics and an appreciation of quality. The Luger has that in spades. But believe me when I tell you that any DWM is prone to breakage. I can't count the many times a sad story has been posted on the two Luger Forums of a shooter telling his story..I have personally posted on a half dozen breakage stories myself. Likely to be more too..in future as I shoot often. If you ever get the chance and have any curiosity about this, get an example of 3 Luger extractors. WW1, WW2 Mauser and Swiss. The evolution of this one part will amaze you. The WW1 DWM is delicate in the extreme..the Mauser seems to beef it up, but the Swiss solved the problem.

material, or manufacturing defect is going to show up sooner or later, even in very small numbers. In the numbers of Luger's made, breakage was concurrent with numbers issued so the breakage problems were unlikely to be "small numbers" looking at the totality of it. Mauser saw it as a serious problem and went to great lengths of design and expense to address it and so did the Swiss.

[PhilOhio]

Jerry, Guys,

Yes, the Swiss (my ancestors) are often problem solvers in the end, except for one: cost.

But you stopped me in my tracks with your second sentence, and when you mentioned "an appreciation of quality". I think it's slipping away from us, as a people. This is often a subject of discussion among my middle aged gun collector friends, who wonder what will happen to the accumulated treasures of our lifetimes? We go to the big gun shows, see what is displayed, what is selling, and the average age of the people passing through. It is changing and tastes are changing.

This is the era of the plastic gun. They work great. They are very reliable. They go bang and they make big holes.

But they aren't Luger quality and art.

Those of us who discuss this fear that, when we are ready to let go of some of it, there will be few to take over and preserve and appreciate what we enjoy so much.

I'm not making any judgments about this, but I am observing and wondering what it means?

I suspect some, or maybe many of you, feel the same.

For now, I enjoy, appreciate, and wonder where we are going. The world has changed so much for the better in so many ways. But regarding gun collecting? I don't know. Things ain't the same. But last November's election was a big plus for us, and at least a short term reprieve for this hobby.

[DonVoigt]

Good food for thought and discussion, but first one would have to agree on a definition for "quality".
It is like some other things- we know it when we see it.

But to an engineer is is "suitability for purpose" and "reliability" and "manufacturing efficiency" and in the final analysis "cost".

Many confuse a crude appearance with poor "quality"- appearance has little to do with the above.

The modern pistol in many forms and iterations can be a quality piece; it is just not so "aesthetically" pleasing as a Luger.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Don't let your friends buy plastic guns.

[DonVoigt]

Jerry,
I don't own a Swiss luger(got to draw the line somewhere); so how did the Swiss solve the extractor problem?

[lugerholsterrepair]

Don the DWM hook under the extractor was very thin and dainty. I have had more than one break right off letting the extractor fly off into parts unknown. Mauser beefed up this hook considerably making it much stronger. The Swiss did away with the hook altogether extending this hook into a full circle so it was supported 360 degrees and IMO virtually indestructable. Well.. as far as staying connected to the pistol anyway.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Don the DWM hook under the extractor was very thin and dainty. I have had more than one break right off letting the extractor fly off into parts unknown. Mauser beefed up this hook considerably making it much stronger. The Swiss did away with the hook altogether extending this hook into a full circle so it was supported 360 degrees and IMO virtually indestructable. Well.. as far as staying connected to the pistol anyway.

Thanks Jerry.
The DWM and Mauser will interchange- but will the Swiss with full circle? Into a DWM or Mauser made bolt that is.