1906 AE Luger Rebarrel.......ALMOST

[Thor]

Thanks to Ron Wood for saving this Luger. Got a 1906 American Eagle in today with some finish problems. Owner wanted to rebarrel as he said the barrel serial didnt agree with the otherwise matched gun. Well, it was a BUG proofed barrel and I noticed Charlie Kenyon's Lugers at Random book shows this additional number which is not a serial number. (17228) These numbers were BOTH on the gun and it looked to the uneducated Luger enthusiast (me) that it was double serialized. Well anyway Ron cleared this up and said it WAS a correct barrel. The owner wanted it rebarreled to 9mm but a subsequent phone call and he changed his mind, thank goodness! Anyway, please note, if you see this arrangement, dont be surprised, it is correct on this variation. Here is what Kenyon's LAR shows, it is proof #1.

[Dwight Gruber]

"...Crown/B and Crown/U are found on the breechblock and left receiver, Crown/G is added on the barrel. B is the overload test proof specified by the proof law of 1892; it also denotes a completely finished pistol. U represents the word Untersuchung (inspected). G is found only on the barrel, and represents the word Gezogen (rifled) (from Costanzo, p. 196). 118,35 is a bore diameter measurement in accordance with English proof laws of 1894. It is equivalent to 9mm, but measured as the number of lead balls of the stamped diameter which weigh a pound (ibid, p. 191)." (emphasis mine)

The foregoing from the profile of a BUG proofed 1908 Commercial (the complete profile can be found at this link ).

172,28 applies to the same formula, but denotes .30 cal. instead of 9mm. Note the comma in the number. This is a European number and the comma has the same meaning as the decimal point in the US.

Any chance you can send me pertinent info for my survey?

--Dwight

[Ron Wood]

Ted,
After our phone conversation, I finally recalled the meaning of the 172,28 number. The number is in accordance with the English proof law (189?) and is the number of round lead balls of 7.65mm diameter that it takes to make a pound. The 118,35 is the number for 9mm. Glad you were able to talk your customer out of rebarreling.

(Oops, scooped again. Dwight beat me to the punch)

[Thor]

Thanks guys, Nice to know the meanins of B U G Dwight!

[Pete Ebbink]

Some follow-up questions :

1. What models would these 177,28 and 118,35 barrel stampings be correct/proper ?

2. If they are British proof markings, why do they appear on AE's targeted for the US markets ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[George Anderson]

Pete, I have a lovely 1900 commercial BUG proofed without "GERMANY" stamp. It is marked with the British gauge measurement on the bottum of the barrel.

A point of interest...I believe this measuring system is what gave us the modern shotgun measurements of 10, 12, 16, 20, 28 gauge. As I understand it the gauge is the number of lead balls the size of the barrel it took to equal a pound. I think the mighty .410 gauge is actually a .41 calibre but I'm not sure.

As a matter of fact, I'm not sure of any of this.

[Navy]

"I believe this measuring system is what gave us the modern shotgun measurements of 10, 12, 16, 20, 28 gauge. As I understand it the gauge is the number of lead balls the size of the barrel it took to equal a pound."

George, you, sir, are exactly right, including the bit on the 410.

ToM A.

[Thor]

Dwight, were you addressing the pertinent information queston to me? If so, what info do you request? Be glad to help you if I can!

[Ron Wood]

Pete,
1. I am not sure. From my observations, they are found on BUG proofed 1902 and 1906 models (obviously also on 1900 models as well, as George's example verifies)
2. They are not British proof marks...they are just conventional markings for the time, something like a standard (precursor to SAE or ISO9000?!!) intended for the international market.

[Dwight Gruber]

Pete,

These designations go along with the German proof laws which mandate the B,U,G proof system. The numbers are on my BUG proofed 1908 Commercial, as well. Its not just on American Eagles--for that matter, proofed AEs of any description are in the minority--but on German-proofed guns.

Thor,

Yep. And you have given me the opportunity to make the request in yet another thread. From the discussion "More American Eagle Proof Survey" (including the results thus far):

So, I am asking for more information, from an expanded vaariety of Lugers. In addition to American Eagles, I am looking for Commercial, Swiss Commercial 1900 and 1906 (-not- the Swiss military contract series), 1900 Bulgarian, 1906 Navy Commercial, and anything else 1900-1906 which came from the Commercial serial number series.

The additional information I am looking for, from 1900 model: -full- serial number, proof marks or absence of same, Swiss cross on the barrel, whether the grip safety is wide (full grip strap width) or narrow (half-width), which type of thumb safety lever (type 1, flat-checkered; type 2, raised checkered; type 3, raised fluted), where the takedown lever is numbered (right end, left face, bottom), and if the gun is GERMANY marked.

From 1902 model: -full- serial number, proof marks or absence of same, whether the grip safety is wide or narrow, which type of thumb safety lever, where the takedown lever is numbered, and if the gun is GERMANY marked.

From 1906 model: -full- serial number, proof marks or absence of same, if the gun is 9mm, and if the gun is GERMANY marked.

--Dwight

[Pete Ebbink]

This 172,28 and 118,35 numbering thing has me stumped...so I create an analogy to help me understand :

1. I am trying to mark my red car so all know it is a red car...and not a white car...

2. I paint on my red car "This is a red car because I can make exactly 1,000 red cars with the the 10,000,000 pounds of car parts and red paint I have".

Why not just mark the car... "Red Car"...? Seems the numbering system is very convoluted...what the heck were the Germans thinking...??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Excuse the brain fart...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Thor]

Dwight on this specimen:
1906 American Eagle with 4 & 3/4" 30 Luger barrel with typical notched 30 Luger front sight. Serial is 48772 with GERMANY under the serial number on the frame. Grip safety is FULL width.
Safety is polished area type. Front toggle link is marked DWM, AE on chamber. Last two digits of Serial number in normal spot on rear of rear toggle link below rear sight. Crown over lazy B and crown over lazy U on left side receiver front. Markings on bottom of barrel in rows from top to bottom.
Top Row: starting on left side Crown over B in upright positiion (UR) followed by a medium size space then Crown over G.
Second Row down: Crown over U in upright position and located BETWEEN the B and G in row one.
Third Row: 172,28 with comma very large and pronounce located well below the bottom of the two 2s.
Fourth Row: 48772 (Serial number)

[Russ]

Pete
Is your car brick red or hatpants red???

Russ <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

[Pete Ebbink]

...in other words :

"This is a 7,65 cal. barrel because I can make 172,28 balls of lead of 7,65mm diameter from one pound of lead"...

Why not just stamp the barrel "7.65"...???

I do not get it...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Edward Tinker]

Because at the time the British were using inches and not metric back then... or to that effect, because when we say Brits they come out of the woodwork! heh, heh

ed

[Dwight Gruber]

Thor,

Thanks for the close observation. If possible I'd still like to know what type of thumb safety lever this gun has--I'd guess fluted--and where the serial# is on the takedown lever, I'd guess on the bottom. I'd rather have the observations than guess, though...

I'm glad to know about this gun, its begining to appear that somewhere between this serial# and 51035 DWM switched over from BUG proofs to c/N. I have a hole in my data here, and this gun helps fill it in.

--Dwight

[Lugerdoc]

Dwight, Commerical DWM lugers from 1900 thru the 1920s did not have numbered safety levers or bars, unless later reworked and renumbered in the military style. TH

[Thor]

Dwight, the last two digits of the serial number are located on the bottom of the takedown lever. The safety lever is NOT serialized and it is the grooved type, NOT checkered.

[Dwight Gruber]

Thats the ticket!

--Dwight

[Dwight Gruber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Pete Ebbink:
<strong>2. If they are British proof markings, why do they appear on AE's targeted for the US markets ?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Paging through my back issues of Auto Mag, I ran across a discussion of German commercial proof marks in an article on Mauser HSc (Auto Mag, Vol. XXXIV Oct. 2001, p.150).

When various countries established national proof laws, reciprocity agreements were negotiated which were were favorable to gunmakers because they reduced the expense of re-proofing exported guns. For this reason, German gunmakers insisted that the German Proof Laws of 1891 be formulated following the original British model.

--Dwight