Pistol identification

[llc]

I am sure the expertise on this board can provide information on my Luger. The pistol is a 30 cal. The serial number is 1602 with an altered e below the number. The proof marks are a cross on top of a crown with the letter N below the crown and a pentagon inside the crown. The serial number only appears on the front of the frame and on no other parts. The proof marks are on all the major parts and are stamped laying on edge. The pistol must be held muzzle up to read them. Appearance leads me to believe all the parts are matched originals. The toggle has DWM engraved on it and the toggle grips are flat, not the dished kind. The extractor is marked with geladen (loaded) and the safety is on when in the most rearward position. GESICHERT is stamped in all upper case letters by the safety lever. The pistol is also equipped with a grip safety. The magazine has no markings at all, appears to be stainless steel and has a brown plastic (bakelite?)grip on it. The pistol grips appear to be walnut. The pistol was equipped with a stock lug but the previous owner indicated his Father had it ground of in the 30's to comply with some federal law. The pistol has about 85% or better blueing but shows pitting on the right side where the previous owner had it laying in his sock drawer for the last 45 years. Is there somewhere I could have the lug skillfully replaced or should I just leave it like it is.....any information or help is appreciated.......Thank you.....Larry Cribbs

[Russ]

Hi Larry
Can you post photos of the gun? Welcome to the forum.
Russ

[llc]

I been trying, all I have done is figure out 9 new ways to shut off the computer. My boy will be over tonight to show ol dad how to do it. Otherwise it will be quicker just to drive down and show it to you. hahaha..........Larry Cribbs

[John D.]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by llc:
<strong>I been trying, all I have done is figure out 9 new ways to shut off the computer. .....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Isn't "technology" just wonderful??!!!! If you or your son need help - you can e-mail me your pics at johnd@rennlist.com and I'll post them for you, OK???

In the meantime - keep the faith!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

- John

[John D.]

Hi All..!

Here are llc pictures.. If you knew what he went through to send them to me - you'd be AMAZED!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Good Job - Larry!!!!!

[Navy]

Guns like this make me want to cry.
Tom A.

[Edward Tinker]

Why Tom, because of the stock lug? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Yes, it is a shame, looks like it is an honest gun except for that to me.

Ed

[llc]

Internally the pistol is flawless with a bore to match. The time in uncared for storage did the pistol no good externally and the grinder certainly did no good for the grip. Be that as it may is there any information available for it? Or even perhaps a guess as to why the Federal government required the stock lug to be ground off. (Assuming the story told to me was correct).
I suspect there is more than one old soldier around with a piece or two missing or modified.If possible I would like some information about this one....Larry Cribbs

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Larry,

I will place a WAG (wild a** guess) but I think yours is a 1906 Commercial luger made by DWM...(with a short frame, grip safety, and no chamber marking).

Not sure when it got its shorter barrel that appears to be in .30 luger caliber...maybe during the Weimar rework era (???).

The front sight is also not DWM original and appears to be a "marble bead" type...not sure when those were available...1920's-1950's...???

The photos are a bit out-of-focus...

I have heard stories that many luger owners around 1968 were afraid of USA gun laws about stocked weapons, so this is when your stock lug may have been modified...

Your magazine appears to be a brown-type issued with Swiss lugers made by the W+F Bern factory in the model 1929 series lugers. If you look closely in the right-side, dished portion of the magazine bottom, you might see a very small Swiss cross molded into the brown plastic. There might even be a scriptic "P" showing on the back spine of the metal magazine tube...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Les]

This looks like a rework from the thirties...in the U.S. Nice gun and original for the period. many people removed the stock lug to comply with the 1934 gun act. Also some people removed the stock lug to make it "more of a target gun" the grip stock slot not being favorable to the best grip hold as on the commercial models...only thing is why agrip safety on a milatary gun?

[Doubs]

Most stock lugs that have been mutilated or completely removed were done so in the mistaken belief that the 1934 National Firearms Act required the lugs removal. It did not. The law forbid the owning of a pistol AND stock combination that could be assembled and used as a carbine or short rifle.

Thus, you could legally own the pistol with the stock lug intact OR the stock intact...... but not both unless you had applied for - and received - permission and paid the $200 tax. Some who owned both chose to remove the iron from the stock (and, one would assume, "lose" the iron) while others ground the stock lug from the pistol, making it impossible to attach the stock. A large number of mis-informed people needlessly mutilated their pistols by gringing the lug, thinking they were complying with the law. They weren't. I once had a commercial .30 Luger that had been ground just enough to ruin it.

[Ron Wood]

Larry,

Your Luger is more than a bit of a puzzle to me. What do you mean by an "altered" e? The lack of a serial number on the barrel is a sure indication of replacement, but I'm not sure what it was originally. It looks like the Crown/N proof is on the frame rail as well as the receiver. Are the side plate and takedown lever marked with "02" on the bottom side? The thumb safety and GESICHERT marking appear appropriate for a grip safety model, but I am like Les, what is a grip safety doing on a military gun (as indicated by the military style serial number with the e below the serial number)?

The Federal government did not require that the stock lug be ground off. That was a misinterpretation of the law that prohibited the use of a sholder stock with a Luger.

The horizontal Crown/N proof pretty much rules out commercial production in the 1920s. However, the military style serial number on a grip safety model would indicate 1920s origin.

This is a very curious piece.

[Les]

crown N mark is on one of 20' made lugers..but it has military marking serial numbers on the frame...is a weimar made gun i think for the u.s. market commercial markings rest of gun

[Les]

just check my collection and it is a german made gun for the comercial market i think if it has no made "made in germany" markings it is a gun made for the german officers to buy in the between war years...the one i have is so marked and i think it is true about wher it came from...why someone ground the stock lug is open for discussion

[Ron Wood]

The horizontal Crown/N is pre-1920. After 1920 the Crown/N is vertical. "Made in Germany" or just "Germany" markings only indicate that the gun was intended for export to an English speaking country. Lugers without such a marking does not indicate that they were made for German officers to buy, only that they are a commercial gun intended for a non-English speaking country that anyone could buy. I am inclined to agree that it is a Weimar era Luger, but the proof marks do not make sense. It is still a puzzle.

[Les]

still think this is a u.s. made up gun from the 20's era..have seen a lot of strange marks from that time ...why it interest me the most

[Ron Wood]

Les,
You very well may be right. Made in U.S.A. from assembled parts is quite possible, but not made in Germany during the Weimar era. I will still withhold further speculation until more details about this Luger are known.

[Les]

not made in the U.S.A but made and sent to the U.S.A buy any means possible at the time..I have one in my collection..in almost 98% condition that came here that way...may not be a

[Lugerdoc]

Larry, Since Ron isn't prepared to make a "WAG" (wild ass guess), I guess that it's my turn. ASSUMEING that this pistol is unaltered, except ground stock lug, since manufacture; I would say that the grip safety/stock lug short frame, would have to be a left over WW1 Navy frame (if suffix letter is original, it may be an a or b rather than an e). The horizonal C/N proofing on the left receiver and frame, could very well been done by Kreighoff during the 1920s or early '30s. They may have also applied the C/N proofs to the TOP of the breech block and even to the LEFT side of the receiver. If your info of being in storage for many years is not correct, it's possible that the horiz. C/N proofing could be of E.German rework origin, but with the gound stock lug, I doubt that. TH

[Ron Wood]

Tom,
Navy was my first reaction, but I havenâ??t seen a short frame navy with a grip safety. Also, I canâ??t tell for sure from the picture whether the GESICHERT is in the upper or lower position. If it is in the lower position, Iâ??m really stumped. My gut feel at this point is that the GESICHERT is in the upper position and it is a short frame military that has had a grip safety added. You would need a clear photo with the grips removed to see if a block has been added to accommodate the grip safety and spring. I have a 1920s vintage Luger that has been so modified, but it is really weird in that it has a first issue type grip safety but the frame is marked GESICHERT in the upper position so that when the thumb safety is in the lower position and you can see the GESICHERT, the gun is actually off safe and ready to fire! I am still bothered by the lazy Crown/N on a post 1920 Luger.