Any have an idea?

[ss454ls61970]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Mike..No problem, Just thought I would try to help out a newbie.

Jerry Burney

I do appreciate the help and any info is more then welcome plus now that I have been kicking around the luger world for a few days I am sure this will become my latest expensive hobby and I'm sure we will do business in the future.
thanks,
Mike

[Vlim]

A Dutch luger with the front sight removed is known to exist. That one was a starting pistol conversion. Wouldn't surprise me if your conversion is somewhat similar: A P08 converted to a starting / signalling pistol. Could have been done by some arsenal with too much spare time on their hands.

[ss454ls61970]

Originally Posted by Vlim

A Dutch luger with the front sight removed is known to exist. That one was a starting pistol conversion. Wouldn't surprise me if your conversion is somewhat similar: A P08 converted to a starting / signalling pistol. Could have been done by some arsenal with too much spare time on their hands.

Sounds like a lead ....hmmmmm I wonder

[ss454ls61970]

I have also noticed that there are no witness marks on the barrel or the base.

[ss454ls61970]

This is weird but I haven't noticed it anywhere poking around the forum my luger has a "nub" under the barrel where I think the witness marks should be that fits into a knotch when reassembled I haven't seen this anywhere the barrel's I have seen are rounded there with the witness mark am I wrong or is this another mystery I can add to the list for this gun.
Thanks!
Mike

[sheepherder]

This is a WAG...but the lack of front sight and rounded conical barrel make me think it is intended to insert into something...maybe firing a blank cartridge...an igniter...or maybe a launcher for something...

I'm thinking that something might clamp onto the barrel, at the rear...or maybe the pistol itself is clamped into something...for signaling maybe???

Definitely something that bears investigation...

[alanint]

How about a collar coupled suppressor?

(It's as good a guess as any)!

[lugerholsterrepair]

Mike..don't bother to look for witness marks..a large portion of your top Cannon/fork has been ground away and replaced by the oversized barrel. I would say at least 3/8ths or more. This means your chamber area..where the date would normally be... must be quite narrow.
I would consider this to be a severe structural breach bordering on what the heck were they thinking?
Regardless of any serial # on the barrel...this is not a real Luger anymore. It has been severly comprimised.
I don't remember from reading the thread if you ever mentioned the calibur. Is there a hole in the barrel? What size it it and is there a chamber area? Have you ever seated a round in it?
I just re read the thread.. John Sabato says-by machining off the face of the upper and using a homemade barrel... This is not a factory modification in my opinion. This exactly my opinion and I sure would NOT fire a round in this weapon.
Ed Tinker says this looks like a proof barrel and I disagree. Any Luger made with a stronger thicker barrel could start where they all do..no need to grind off the face of the top cannon in the breech area..simply make the barrel fatter. In your pistols case they ground away metal and then replaced it with the same amount. No gain there.
Besides which.. a fatter stronger barrel defeats the purpose of proofing. A proof cartridge is made 50% hotter to proof the barrel. In other words.. with much more pressure will the type of barrel made and used stand up to extroidinary pressures? Makes no sense to make a bigger fatter barrel.
This looks very much like a Bubba hack job to me.
Another important aspect to consider, if this were some special factory test piece it would have SOME markings indicating something about it.
I have a 1917 Imperial Navy that has a very large V stamped over the chamber. My belief is that it stands for Verschucs(spelling?) or test. Of course test can also be Pr�¼fung. This and one other 4" pistol I discovered in Europe were marked the same way. What they were testing I can't say for sure but it might have been the change from the truncated cone cartridge to the ogive shaped ones.
The front sight is likely missing because bubba did not have the machine skills to mill it on there. He simply carved out a barrel from round stock and left the sight off to be silver soldered on later.

__________________

Jerry Burney

[ss454ls61970]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Mike..don't bother to look for witness marks..a large portion of your top Cannon/fork has been ground away and replaced by the oversized barrel. I would say at least 3/8ths or more. This means your chamber area..where the date would normally be... must be quite narrow. Regardless of any serial # on the barrel...this is not a real Luger anymore. It has been severly comprimised.

I would consider this to be a severe structural breach bordering on what the heck were they thinking?
I don't remember from reading the thread if you ever mentioned the calibur. Is there a hole in the barrel? What size it it and is there a chamber area? Have you ever seated a round in it?

Jerry Burney

no I haven't put a round in yet. As far a severly comprmised and not a real luger... no one has touched this since the war and that notch/nub (not on the barrel) is not normal and shows it was machined that way. I know I don't know everything and you are a moderator but why say "this is not a real luger anymore" how did you make that assement. Since I said very nicely i didn't want to trade an heirloom holster for a random luger holster you have been less then cool...(check the thread) as I recall just before you offered the trade you said "Mike, Fascinating pistol!"

"If you want to work some sort of holster trade I am sure I could come up with a proper Luger holster for you.
Thanks, Jerry Burney "

and as soon as I said no thanks you said "-Mike..No problem, Just thought I would try to help out a newbie." and now I don't have a real luger? then why advise me to come up with a "proper holster" for my "Fascinating pistol" wow! I should have just given you the holster and I could stay in the club"

To anyone else at this forum I love it and it has opened a whole new avenue of intrest for me and I would like to stay but if i get booted I appreciate all the info and all the very nice comments"
Thanks,
Mike

[ss454ls61970]

Originally Posted by postino

This is a WAG...but the lack of front sight and rounded conical barrel make me think it is intended to insert into something...maybe firing a blank cartridge...an igniter...or maybe a launcher for something...

I'm thinking that something might clamp onto the barrel, at the rear...or maybe the pistol itself is clamped into something...for signaling maybe???

Definitely something that bears investigation...

You know what you might be right there are 2 small notches one on top and one on the bottom of the barrel.

[ss454ls61970]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Mike..don't bother to look for witness marks..a large portion of your top Cannon/fork has been ground away and replaced by the oversized barrel. I would say at least 3/8ths or more. This means your chamber area..where the date would normally be... must be quite narrow.
I would consider this to be a severe structural breach bordering on what the heck were they thinking?
Regardless of any serial # on the barrel...this is not a real Luger anymore. It has been severly comprimised.
I don't remember from reading the thread if you ever mentioned the calibur. Is there a hole in the barrel? What size it it and is there a chamber area? Have you ever seated a round in it?
I just re read the thread.. John Sabato says-by machining off the face of the upper and using a homemade barrel... This is not a factory modification in my opinion. This exactly my opinion and I sure would NOT fire a round in this weapon.
Ed Tinker says this looks like a proof barrel and I disagree. Any Luger made with a stronger thicker barrel could start where they all do..no need to grind off the face of the top cannon in the breech area..simply make the barrel fatter. In your pistols case they ground away metal and then replaced it with the same amount. No gain there.
Besides which.. a fatter stronger barrel defeats the purpose of proofing. A proof cartridge is made 50% hotter to proof the barrel. In other words.. with much more pressure will the type of barrel made and used stand up to extroidinary pressures? Makes no sense to make a bigger fatter barrel.
This looks very much like a Bubba hack job to me.
Another important aspect to consider, if this were some special factory test piece it would have SOME markings indicating something about it.
I have a 1917 Imperial Navy that has a very large V stamped over the chamber. My belief is that it stands for Verschucs(spelling?) or test. Of course test can also be Pr�¼fung. This and one other 4" pistol I discovered in Europe were marked the same way. What they were testing I can't say for sure but it might have been the change from the truncated cone cartridge to the ogive shaped ones.
The front sight is likely missing because bubba did not have the machine skills to mill it on there. He simply carved out a barrel from round stock and left the sight off to be silver soldered on later.

__________________

Jerry Burney

let me get this straight you saying that my great grandfather did a bubba hack job??? and kept it secret ...um for what purpose?

Whay are you cutting into me so hard?

[ss454ls61970]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Mike..don't bother to look for witness marks..a large portion of your top Cannon/fork has been ground away and replaced by the oversized barrel. I would say at least 3/8ths or more. This means your chamber area..where the date would normally be... must be quite narrow.
I would consider this to be a severe structural breach bordering on what the heck were they thinking?
Regardless of any serial # on the barrel...this is not a real Luger anymore. It has been severly comprimised.
I don't remember from reading the thread if you ever mentioned the calibur. Is there a hole in the barrel? What size it it and is there a chamber area? Have you ever seated a round in it?
I just re read the thread.. John Sabato says-by machining off the face of the upper and using a homemade barrel... This is not a factory modification in my opinion. This exactly my opinion and I sure would NOT fire a round in this weapon.
Ed Tinker says this looks like a proof barrel and I disagree. Any Luger made with a stronger thicker barrel could start where they all do..no need to grind off the face of the top cannon in the breech area..simply make the barrel fatter. In your pistols case they ground away metal and then replaced it with the same amount. No gain there.
Besides which.. a fatter stronger barrel defeats the purpose of proofing. A proof cartridge is made 50% hotter to proof the barrel. In other words.. with much more pressure will the type of barrel made and used stand up to extroidinary pressures? Makes no sense to make a bigger fatter barrel.
This looks very much like a Bubba hack job to me.
Another important aspect to consider, if this were some special factory test piece it would have SOME markings indicating something about it.
I have a 1917 Imperial Navy that has a very large V stamped over the chamber. My belief is that it stands for Verschucs(spelling?) or test. Of course test can also be Pr�¼fung. This and one other 4" pistol I discovered in Europe were marked the same way. What they were testing I can't say for sure but it might have been the change from the truncated cone cartridge to the ogive shaped ones.
The front sight is likely missing because bubba did not have the machine skills to mill it on there. He simply carved out a barrel from round stock and left the sight off to be silver soldered on later.

__________________

Jerry Burney

Just one last thing and i'm done for the night why...why would someone cut the reciver down re-machine a notch and a nub and forget to put a sight on the front with a bigger barrel and then take the time and energy to stamp a matching serial # on it ...to fool a luger collector? everyone that has ever held, seen, or been near a hand gun ever knows they are supposed to have a front sight. SIR I know my grandfather was no fool.


I hope my login works in the morning.

Thanks to all

Good night

[ss454ls61970]

Originally Posted by alanint

How about a collar coupled suppressor?

(It's as good a guess as any)!

I saw a silenced one on youtube but the silencer fit over the sight... i don't know it's a strange one.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Mike, Please don't be petulant and childish. Fascinating..yes of course. Any Luger this far from the norm is fascinating.
What I meant by not a real Luger is it's had parts of it ground away! Ok..to make you happy again I retract it. It's what's left of a real Luger.

Now, let's address your holster issue as that must be more important for you than discussing the in's and outs of your pistol.
I made you an offer..a more than fair offer by the way. You accepted. You Thought better of it and I said fine..Now you want to petulantly cry like a baby that I'm not treating you right? It was my belief that you might want the correct WW1 era holster for your pistol. Instead you plead for help! Please!!! someone tell me I did the right thing. In the collecting World I make trades everyday, I try to help where I can. I guess no good deed goes unpunished.

You don't like what I have to say that's fine but lets stick to talking about the merits of the pistol and leave your emotions and feelings out of this. I'm not out to "get" you over some traders remorse you had.

I thought I gave your pistol some serious thought and analysis.

One other thing I will add about your Grandfather...he likely had the pistol for many years before you saw it or it came into your hands. Maybe decades. You don't know for certain what it's provenance is.

Why would you get booted? You have acted properly and remained civil. Concentrate on investigating your pistol and get your paranoia in check.

Jerry Burney

[ss454ls61970]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Mike, Please don't be petulant and childish. Fascinating..yes of course. Any Luger this far from the norm is fascinating.
What I meant by not a real Luger is it's had parts of it ground away! Ok..to make you happy again I retract it. It's what's left of a real Luger.

Now, let's address your holster issue as that must be more important for you than discussing the in's and outs of your pistol.
I made you an offer..a more than fair offer by the way. You accepted. You Thought better of it and I said fine..Now you want to petulantly cry like a baby that I'm not treating you right? It was my belief that you might want the correct WW1 era holster for your pistol. Instead you plead for help! Please!!! someone tell me I did the right thing. In the collecting World I make trades everyday, I try to help where I can. I guess no good deed goes unpunished.

You don't like what I have to say that's fine but lets stick to talking about the merits of the pistol and leave your emotions and feelings out of this. I'm not out to "get" you over some traders remorse you had.

I thought I gave your pistol some serious thought and analysis.

Why would you get booted? You have acted properly and remained civil. Concentrate on investigating your pistol and get your paranoia in check.

Jerry Burney

whats with the name calling?

"petulant and childish
"Please!!! someone tell me I did the right thing
"Concentrate on investigating your pistol and get your paranoia in check. "
"Now you want to petulantly cry like a baby that I'm not treating you right?"



...really man???

I never accepted your offer feel free to check the thread.
Ok focusing on the gun.. I have asked 2 questions neither of them has been comented on by you so how am I the one off task?

1) my luger has a "nub" under the barrel where I think the witness marks should be that fits into a knotch when reassembled I haven't seen this anywhere the barrel's I have seen are rounded there

2)why would someone cut the reciver down re-machine a notch and a nub and forget to put a sight on the front with a bigger barrel and then take the time and energy to stamp a matching serial # on it ...to fool a luger collector? everyone that has ever held, seen, or been near a hand gun ever knows they are supposed to have a front sight.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Grow up..have a good cry and get back to the subject at hand. Or not...up to you.

Jerry Burney

[ss454ls61970]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Grow up..have a good cry and get back to the subject at hand. Or not...up to you.

Jerry Burney

1) my luger has a "nub" under the barrel where I think the witness marks should be that fits into a knotch when reassembled I haven't seen this anywhere the barrel's I have seen are rounded there

2)why would someone cut the reciver down re-machine a notch and a nub and forget to put a sight on the front with a bigger barrel and then take the time and energy to stamp a matching serial # on it ...to fool a luger collector? everyone that has ever held, seen, or been near a hand gun ever knows they are supposed to have a front sight.

[ss454ls61970]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Grow up..have a good cry and get back to the subject at hand. Or not...up to you.

Jerry Burney

For the record
I have not insulted you once this entire time. You can not make that claim.

Your rage has proven everything I have written.
Goodnight.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Mike, I believe the nub you speak of is the stop on the bottom of the barrel. The witness marks would be towards the muzzle end a quarter inch or so, This is the portion of your pistol that has been ground off.
There is actually no reason for witness marks on your barrel. These were ostensibly to align the sight to the top dead center. Yours has no sight to align.

Why would someone do all these things? The longer you look into Lugers you will find many bored machinests did this and much more. Why? Because in days past these pistols were worth much less than they are today and were a machinists playground. Just as the thousands of 98 K rifles that were converted into hunting rifles. Now worth a couple hundred bucks but if not monkeyed with are worth thousands.

As far as your serial # goes..It's difficult to argue one way or the other because they cancel each other out. Anyone capable of machining and installing this barrel certainly has a set of number dies laying around. Everything else is numbered 24..why not my new barrel? Who's to say?
Here's another thing to speculate on..The chamber got ground away because the bored machinest couldn't quite get a proper fit on the new barrel in the chamber area so the easiest place to take up the slack is to grind away the receiver untill it snugs up.
One can speculate untill the cows come home and it's mostly a guessing game of conjecture.

All I know is no competent gunsmith would willingly grind away that much of the receiver, part of the structural integrity of the original design. Not no how, no way. Bubba did it.

Jerry Burney

Are the numbers on the barrel the same font/size as the other numbers on the pistol?