First Luger

Parabellus · 04-19-2006, 01:47 AM

Greetings everyone!

I am three days into my ten-day waiting period to acquire my first Luger, a 1920 DWM military pistol. The numbers match and the outward condition looks good. It fires but the action is stiff and won't fully chamber a round. I have no knowledge nor desire to disassemble the weapon. The dealer says that a military cartridge instead of a standard 9mm may solve the problem. Once I take delivery I plan to head to the firing range. Is there any advice I can get concerning oiling, cleaning, etc? Needless to say I am very excited and anxious to make it work properly.

I am new to handguns in general though I became familiar with M14 and M16 rifles during the VietNam War. I did my year at the 43rd Signal Battalion near Pleiku and II Corps HQ.

It's good to find a group like this. I hope my selected username is not too pretentious.

Thank you all,
Parabellus

Dwight Gruber · 04-19-2006, 03:45 AM

Parabellus,

Congratulations on (almost) owning your first Luger, and welcome to the Luger Forum.

Before you take your Luger to the range, you need to have it checked out by a good gunsmith who is particularly knowledgable about Lugers. The failure to fully chamber a cartridge is a problem which must be addressed. Your dealer's ammunition solution betrays his inexperience with these guns, and a cavalier attitude regarding your safety.

As you live in the Bay area, you have the good fortune to be near one of the premier Lugersmiths in the country. Look up Mike Krause, and run this problem by him. I don't know his address offhand, but there are probably people here who can tell you.

Good luck, and let us all know how things come out.

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 04-19-2006, 08:46 AM

Russ, welcome to the forum! I moved your thread here, once you became an actual member you can post in other areas.

A simple disassembly and through oiling might take care of the problem. If you are going to shoot it, then you'll need to learn to take her apart anyway. A complete disassembly is not required, nor suggested.

ed

Parabellus · 04-19-2006, 09:46 AM

Thank you Dwight,

I tried a quick search for Mike Krause but got no useful hits. I'll keep trying and/or find a person who can look it over more carefully.

Even though it should have some collector's value I really want to be able to shoot. Would a wire bore brush be appropriate for cleaning such a weapon? I'm sure I need to read much more deeply to find such basic information.

Thanks again,
Parabellus

Parabellus · 04-19-2006, 10:45 AM

Thank you Ed,

I better get busy and learn how to field strip my Luger. If that free's up the action enough to chamber the cartridge should it be regarded as safe to fire? The dealer did fire it into the tank several times but he had to manually chamber the rounds or press down on the toggle to complete the action.

It's really good to meet you folks.

Russ

Vlim · 04-19-2006, 10:46 AM

Hi,

Fieldstripping a luger for cleaning and lubrication purposes is actually very simple. I usually use a plastic wire brush for basic cleaning, then a cloth brush with a tiny amount of oil to finish it off. This is for simple cleaning after shooting. The brass wire brush works fine if the pistol really has a lot of crud in it, but once you get it to a servicable level again, you won't need it that much.

Here you can find a quick reference to luger fieldstripping:
http://www.vlimmere.demon.nl/Parabel...dstripping.pdf

Parabellus · 04-20-2006, 01:46 AM

Thank you too Gerben,

This will definitely help me. Now I have some information so I can move forward with a little confidence. Sure, there will be more questions. Now I know where to turn for answers.

Russ

Lugerdoc · 04-20-2006, 09:54 AM

Para, Hopefully your dealer wasn't firing 9mm thru a 7.65mm 1920 commerical. Mike Krause of Krause Werke in San Mateo, can certainly tell you what you have. If your not in SM Co. there are several other Forum members in the Bay Area, that I'm sure would be willing to help. TH

Parabellus · 04-20-2006, 10:18 AM

Looking through the Rogues Gallery I see ther is already a 'Russ' so I guess I'll sign off as.....

Russell

Edward Tinker · 04-20-2006, 10:33 AM

Russ; and remember, it doesn't need to be taken all the way down for cleaning, I always just take the barrel / receiver off of the bottom, take the breachblock group out and clean the barrel, wiping everything else down...

Ed

Parabellus · 04-20-2006, 11:30 AM

OK, I have Krause Werke in my sights. It's two miles from my workplace. I'll have them look it over and advise me accordingly. It sounds like Mike Krause is the man to talk to in my area. This keeps getting better and better. Thanks Doc & Ed.

Russell

Parabellus · 04-25-2006, 10:25 PM

Hello again friends,

Here it is: P-08 9mm DWM #83808 1920.
At least if I can manage the upload.

I have yet to take it down at all. I thought I would take it first to Kraus Werke and have them check it out for utility and collectability. If everything matches (except the mag) I may take the advice I read on the forum and switch out some breakable parts if available. One question though. In other places I have read that a mixed C-96 can be dangerous for the user. Is there similar concern regarding the P-08? Also, is there any part that should not or cannot be swapped out (like the bolt on the M14)?

I am truly elated with my acquisition. I never thought I could get so excited about a gun.

Russell

Parabellus · 04-25-2006, 10:29 PM

Well, it sort of worked.

Now it looks right.

John Sabato · 04-25-2006, 10:59 PM

Hi Russell,

Welcome to the Lugerforum... The trick about displaying your photos is to use the (img) and (/img) tags instead of the url tags directly in front and behind your image locations and put a carriage return in between the photo syntax and you can put up to eight images in each post... only the tags use the hard brackets instead of parentheses... [ ]

I edited your last post to display that photo... you can do the same by using the edit icon on your own posts and editing the syntax as I have described.

It is a very nice commercial Luger... it is definitely a keeper... even though it was not a wartime manufacture, you have the essence of the quality produced by DWM in the early 20th century...

Enjoy it... the design is timeless.

policeluger · 04-25-2006, 11:37 PM

Nice police in need of a new police sear safety...

Edward Tinker · 04-26-2006, 12:44 AM

hmm, is this one of those interesting ones that had the 8 added???

Jan Stills forum
[quote]This is an interesting find that I came across. A friend of mine received an e-mail and was told about a Luger, in the discussion he found out that it more than likely was a Weimar Police and he kindly put me in touch with him. Then I "tried" to give him some advice, and he offered me the Luger.

It is a 1921 DWM Commercial, there are several things about it that make me wonder, but it was seemingly "untouched" when I got it. Bore was full of years of grime and the grips had spots of rust under them, although with some freckling and spots of rust that cleaned up nicely.

Here are the oddities of this gun:

It seemingly is a five digit commercial, its numbering is in line with the year (1921), however, and this is something that could be a manufacturing error (?) or is it possible that the gun started as imperial parts and became a "commercial"

The serial number is marked on the left in the commercial fashion and also at the front of the trigger guard. HOWEVER, under the commercial serial number is an "a" and on the barrel it is marked with the last FOUR and a suffix "a".

The toggle pin was broken, but I am not overly worried about that, although it is a shame and it is tight unless you take it out. It did not come out easy and I believe it had not been out for many years.

It has a sear safety but no magazine safety was ever installed. The sear has been stamped with what is believed to be a repair stamping.

In addition to having a sear safety, it is police (unit) marked O.P.M. 274 on the front grip strap, I could not find a correlation in my book for this marking?

The magazine is not matching, but is stamped as a police with the serial number and the number 1.

Here is a close up of the left side, the sideplate looks a bit odd, possibly force matched by a police armory, it is crown B stamped, again "probably" a repair stamping.

1921 DWM Ã¢??CommercialÃ¢?Â

Serial number Grip Strap Marking Sear Safety?
unknown O.P.M. 90
83591a O.P.M. 274
83240a O.P.M. 305
83203a O.P.M. 309
83282a O.P.M. 431
83426a S.Hn

CHART Showing Info

Parabellus · 04-26-2006, 01:18 AM

Now I am thoroughly dumfounded (besides being utterly ignorant). The number on my 1920 is higher than the 1921 described. I do not even know what the sear is much less if it needs a safety. What I gather is that mine is a commercially produced police Luger as opposed to any kind of military firearm. Please enlighten me.

Vlim · 04-26-2006, 04:15 AM

Hi,

You're not far from the truth. During 1920 and 1921 DWM produced a series of pistols for the Weimar police and reichswehr. As DWM was operating on a skeleton crew and had access to loads of parts (and probably guns) left over from the war production, they probably used whatever they had lying around.

It seems both the pistols shown were initially commercially proofed, 'commercial' pistols, which received military style numbering afterwards.

It's actually obvious on your pistol, as the serial number on the receiver is partially struck over the crown/N firing proof. What is interesting is the difference in the number '3' between the two pistols shown.

An interesting pistol.

John Sabato · 04-26-2006, 07:55 AM

You can look up the parts by name in the technical section of our website. The upper receiver left side contains the sear bar, held in place by a flat spring. The front of the sear has a springloaded button that is the disconnector.

You gun configuration = police use because the top of your sideplate has a rectangular notch where the pin that dropped into the sear to prevent it's movement when the sideplate was removed. There is also a small hole in the projection on the upper receiver that covers the sear bar where the sear safety was riveted. The entire sear safety has been removed. The use of the safety is dubious and it was only used on Police service Lugers. If you can find the parts and have them installed it would "complete" your Luger, but as long as you know that a chambered round could be discharged by pressing inward on the front of the sear with the upper receiver removed from the grip frame. So a forum search for "sear safety" and you will find photos of the install parts...

Edward Tinker · 04-26-2006, 09:43 AM

My feeling on these "contract" commercials, is that they were taken from some unit or storage area and given the 'extra" 8 part of the serial number to distinguish them from another contract.

The big question I did not ask last night was;

Does yours have an "a" suffix?

Ed

PS: Here is what a sear safety looks like from the side, top with one, bottom without;

04-19-2006, 01:47 AM	#1
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	First Luger Greetings everyone! I am three days into my ten-day waiting period to acquire my first Luger, a 1920 DWM military pistol. The numbers match and the outward condition looks good. It fires but the action is stiff and won't fully chamber a round. I have no knowledge nor desire to disassemble the weapon. The dealer says that a military cartridge instead of a standard 9mm may solve the problem. Once I take delivery I plan to head to the firing range. Is there any advice I can get concerning oiling, cleaning, etc? Needless to say I am very excited and anxious to make it work properly. I am new to handguns in general though I became familiar with M14 and M16 rifles during the VietNam War. I did my year at the 43rd Signal Battalion near Pleiku and II Corps HQ. It's good to find a group like this. I hope my selected username is not too pretentious. Thank you all, Parabellus

04-19-2006, 08:46 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Russ, welcome to the forum! I moved your thread here, once you became an actual member you can post in other areas. A simple disassembly and through oiling might take care of the problem. If you are going to shoot it, then you'll need to learn to take her apart anyway. A complete disassembly is not required, nor suggested. ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-19-2006, 09:46 AM	#4
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Thank you Dwight, I tried a quick search for Mike Krause but got no useful hits. I'll keep trying and/or find a person who can look it over more carefully. Even though it should have some collector's value I really want to be able to shoot. Would a wire bore brush be appropriate for cleaning such a weapon? I'm sure I need to read much more deeply to find such basic information. Thanks again, Parabellus __________________

04-19-2006, 10:45 AM	#5
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Thank you Ed, I better get busy and learn how to field strip my Luger. If that free's up the action enough to chamber the cartridge should it be regarded as safe to fire? The dealer did fire it into the tank several times but he had to manually chamber the rounds or press down on the toggle to complete the action. It's really good to meet you folks. Russ __________________

04-20-2006, 01:46 AM	#7
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Thank you too Gerben, This will definitely help me. Now I have some information so I can move forward with a little confidence. Sure, there will be more questions. Now I know where to turn for answers. Russ __________________

04-19-2006, 03:45 AM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Parabellus, Congratulations on (almost) owning your first Luger, and welcome to the Luger Forum. Before you take your Luger to the range, you need to have it checked out by a good gunsmith who is particularly knowledgable about Lugers. The failure to fully chamber a cartridge is a problem which must be addressed. Your dealer's ammunition solution betrays his inexperience with these guns, and a cavalier attitude regarding your safety. As you live in the Bay area, you have the good fortune to be near one of the premier Lugersmiths in the country. Look up Mike Krause, and run this problem by him. I don't know his address offhand, but there are probably people here who can tell you. Good luck, and let us all know how things come out. --Dwight

04-19-2006, 10:46 AM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Hi, Fieldstripping a luger for cleaning and lubrication purposes is actually very simple. I usually use a plastic wire brush for basic cleaning, then a cloth brush with a tiny amount of oil to finish it off. This is for simple cleaning after shooting. The brass wire brush works fine if the pistol really has a lot of crud in it, but once you get it to a servicable level again, you won't need it that much. Here you can find a quick reference to luger fieldstripping: http://www.vlimmere.demon.nl/Parabel...dstripping.pdf

04-20-2006, 09:54 AM	#8
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Para, Hopefully your dealer wasn't firing 9mm thru a 7.65mm 1920 commerical. Mike Krause of Krause Werke in San Mateo, can certainly tell you what you have. If your not in SM Co. there are several other Forum members in the Bay Area, that I'm sure would be willing to help. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

04-20-2006, 10:18 AM	#9
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Looking through the Rogues Gallery I see ther is already a 'Russ' so I guess I'll sign off as..... Russell

04-20-2006, 10:33 AM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Russ; and remember, it doesn't need to be taken all the way down for cleaning, I always just take the barrel / receiver off of the bottom, take the breachblock group out and clean the barrel, wiping everything else down... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-20-2006, 11:30 AM	#11
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	OK, I have Krause Werke in my sights. It's two miles from my workplace. I'll have them look it over and advise me accordingly. It sounds like Mike Krause is the man to talk to in my area. This keeps getting better and better. Thanks Doc & Ed. Russell __________________

04-25-2006, 10:25 PM	#12
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Hello again friends, Here it is: P-08 9mm DWM #83808 1920. At least if I can manage the upload. I have yet to take it down at all. I thought I would take it first to Kraus Werke and have them check it out for utility and collectability. If everything matches (except the mag) I may take the advice I read on the forum and switch out some breakable parts if available. One question though. In other places I have read that a mixed C-96 can be dangerous for the user. Is there similar concern regarding the P-08? Also, is there any part that should not or cannot be swapped out (like the bolt on the M14)? I am truly elated with my acquisition. I never thought I could get so excited about a gun. Russell

04-25-2006, 10:29 PM	#13
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Well, it sort of worked. Now it looks right.

04-25-2006, 10:59 PM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Photo Displlay in your posts Hi Russell, Welcome to the Lugerforum... The trick about displaying your photos is to use the (img) and (/img) tags instead of the url tags directly in front and behind your image locations and put a carriage return in between the photo syntax and you can put up to eight images in each post... only the tags use the hard brackets instead of parentheses... [ ] I edited your last post to display that photo... you can do the same by using the edit icon on your own posts and editing the syntax as I have described. It is a very nice commercial Luger... it is definitely a keeper... even though it was not a wartime manufacture, you have the essence of the quality produced by DWM in the early 20th century... Enjoy it... the design is timeless. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-25-2006, 11:37 PM	#15
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Nice police in need of a new police sear safety...

04-26-2006, 12:44 AM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	hmm, is this one of those interesting ones that had the 8 added??? Jan Stills forum [quote]This is an interesting find that I came across. A friend of mine received an e-mail and was told about a Luger, in the discussion he found out that it more than likely was a Weimar Police and he kindly put me in touch with him. Then I "tried" to give him some advice, and he offered me the Luger. It is a 1921 DWM Commercial, there are several things about it that make me wonder, but it was seemingly "untouched" when I got it. Bore was full of years of grime and the grips had spots of rust under them, although with some freckling and spots of rust that cleaned up nicely. Here are the oddities of this gun: It seemingly is a five digit commercial, its numbering is in line with the year (1921), however, and this is something that could be a manufacturing error (?) or is it possible that the gun started as imperial parts and became a "commercial" The serial number is marked on the left in the commercial fashion and also at the front of the trigger guard. HOWEVER, under the commercial serial number is an "a" and on the barrel it is marked with the last FOUR and a suffix "a". The toggle pin was broken, but I am not overly worried about that, although it is a shame and it is tight unless you take it out. It did not come out easy and I believe it had not been out for many years. It has a sear safety but no magazine safety was ever installed. The sear has been stamped with what is believed to be a repair stamping. In addition to having a sear safety, it is police (unit) marked O.P.M. 274 on the front grip strap, I could not find a correlation in my book for this marking? The magazine is not matching, but is stamped as a police with the serial number and the number 1. Here is a close up of the left side, the sideplate looks a bit odd, possibly force matched by a police armory, it is crown B stamped, again "probably" a repair stamping. 1921 DWM Ã¢??CommercialÃ¢?Â Serial number Grip Strap Marking Sear Safety? unknown O.P.M. 90 83591a O.P.M. 274 83240a O.P.M. 305 83203a O.P.M. 309 83282a O.P.M. 431 83426a S.Hn CHART Showing Info

04-26-2006, 01:18 AM	#17
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Now I am thoroughly dumfounded (besides being utterly ignorant). The number on my 1920 is higher than the 1921 described. I do not even know what the sear is much less if it needs a safety. What I gather is that mine is a commercially produced police Luger as opposed to any kind of military firearm. Please enlighten me. __________________

04-26-2006, 04:15 AM	#18
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Hi, You're not far from the truth. During 1920 and 1921 DWM produced a series of pistols for the Weimar police and reichswehr. As DWM was operating on a skeleton crew and had access to loads of parts (and probably guns) left over from the war production, they probably used whatever they had lying around. It seems both the pistols shown were initially commercially proofed, 'commercial' pistols, which received military style numbering afterwards. It's actually obvious on your pistol, as the serial number on the receiver is partially struck over the crown/N firing proof. What is interesting is the difference in the number '3' between the two pistols shown. An interesting pistol.

04-26-2006, 07:55 AM	#19
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	You can look up the parts by name in the technical section of our website. The upper receiver left side contains the sear bar, held in place by a flat spring. The front of the sear has a springloaded button that is the disconnector. You gun configuration = police use because the top of your sideplate has a rectangular notch where the pin that dropped into the sear to prevent it's movement when the sideplate was removed. There is also a small hole in the projection on the upper receiver that covers the sear bar where the sear safety was riveted. The entire sear safety has been removed. The use of the safety is dubious and it was only used on Police service Lugers. If you can find the parts and have them installed it would "complete" your Luger, but as long as you know that a chambered round could be discharged by pressing inward on the front of the sear with the upper receiver removed from the grip frame. So a forum search for "sear safety" and you will find photos of the install parts... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-26-2006, 09:43 AM	#20
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	My feeling on these "contract" commercials, is that they were taken from some unit or storage area and given the 'extra" 8 part of the serial number to distinguish them from another contract. The big question I did not ask last night was; Does yours have an "a" suffix? Ed PS: Here is what a sear safety looks like from the side, top with one, bottom without;