DWM 1914 Rig

Aaron · 02-12-2001, 06:08 PM

I recently acquired a DWM 1914 Luger outfit, 9mm, serial #25XX with all numbers matching. It came in a 1915 holster with two wood bottom, numbered, but non-matching mags and an unmarked loading tool. The gun is mint internally, but the outside has a bit of speckling. The straw color is at least 90%. The word "Germany" is stamped under the safety, so I understand this is what is called a "Weimar Luger," exported after the war. However, this looks like it came right from the battlefield and was in no way refinished or altered, just stamped "Germany" and shipped right out. How does this differ from all the Lugers which were refinished with dates and other markings removed, rebarreled to .30 caliber, and then stamped "Germany?" How much value does my Luger lose by being stamped for export?

Johnny Peppers · 02-12-2001, 07:19 PM

I certainly haven't seen anywhere near all the Luger variations, but have never seen one stamped GERMANY under the safety. Is it possible that what you are seeing is Gesichert?

Kyrie · 02-12-2001, 08:14 PM

Hi Aaron,

The answer to your question is, "Not a dime."

It sounds like what you have is the variation collectors commonly call a "1920 Commercial". While the majority of these seem to have been rebarreled to 7.65 Parabellum and to have had at least some attempt to remove the chamber date, there are examples with what appear to be their original 9 mm Parabellum barrels and untouched chamber dates.

The location of the "GERMANY" is a bit unusual. I'd not have been surprised if it were under the sear bar lever (the actual safety that prevents the sear bar from moving with the safety applied), but it is quite unusual to find the "GERMANY" marking all the way back by the safety lever. I don't know that this odd location would have any effect on value, but it will likely cause some raised eyebrows and quizzical looks

Hope this helps!

Best regards,

Kyrie

Johnny Peppers · 02-12-2001, 11:33 PM

The two main parts of the safety are the safety bar and the safety lever. The part that prevents the sear bar from moving when the safety lever is applied is the safety bar.

The Germans may have just lost the war, but they did not lose their sense of commerce. The DWM factory would never have sent a battle weary P08 to the United States to be sold as a new commercial pistol. The German economy was in desperate need of money, and the last thing they would want to do was to destroy an established market by selling a left over military pistol with all the military markings intact under the guise of being a new pistol. Some of the 1920 Commercial parts may have been left over military, but all military markings had been removed before refinish. The leftover military pistols stamped with the Reichswehr 1920 property mark have long been confused with the 1920 Commercial, but are in no way related.

BILL · 02-12-2001, 11:43 PM

It would be interesting to see the Germany stamp under the safety lever. On the military model the word Gesichert is stamped above the safety lever. I have seen a lot of WWI Lugers and have not seen one with Germany stamped anywhere on it (but then there is stuff out there that just keeps coming out of the woodwork for the first time).

Aaron · 02-13-2001, 01:43 AM

You fellows are making me think I might have something unusual, as there is no doubt there is a Germany stamp near the safety lever. Actually, I passed this by Ralph Shattuck a couple of months ago, and he wasn't impressed much. He said it was a run of the mill Weimar Luger. Anyway, I will try to get some photos on this forum if I can figure out how to do it. Meanwhile, thanks for the comments.

John Sabato · 02-13-2001, 10:16 AM

Aaron,

You can post your photo on a free site like Photopoint.com and then put the URL for the photo in the block below the text box called Optional Image Link and it will appear with your posted message.

an alternative is to email the photo to Dok who is the webmaster and ask him to post in in the 'Owner's Corner" page. Instructions are at the top of that page.

I would love to see these unique sounding stamps you have spoken of.

If you problem is the lack of a digital camera, you can send the paper photo to Dok, or to me and one of us can convert it to digital so it can be posted.

regards,

-John

Kyrie · 02-13-2001, 03:58 PM

Hi Johnny,

Alas, I'm afraid you are mistaken :-(

While many (and quite possibly most) 1920 Commercials had all the military markings removed, a number did not. It's not unusual to find 1920 Commercials with both C/N and Imperial Army acceptance and proof, or only Imperial Army acceptance and proof. Also, while there was usually some effort to remove chamber dates these efforts were not always entirely successful.

OTOH, you are right on target concerning the distinction between the 1920 Commercial variation and those pistols stamped with the Reichswehr 1920 property mark

Regards,

Kyrie

Aaron · 02-14-2001, 02:33 AM

Have managed to take photos of this pistol, including markings, and have submitted them to the Owners' Corner. Those interested will hopefully see what we are discussing.

02-12-2001, 06:08 PM	#1
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	DWM 1914 Rig I recently acquired a DWM 1914 Luger outfit, 9mm, serial #25XX with all numbers matching. It came in a 1915 holster with two wood bottom, numbered, but non-matching mags and an unmarked loading tool. The gun is mint internally, but the outside has a bit of speckling. The straw color is at least 90%. The word "Germany" is stamped under the safety, so I understand this is what is called a "Weimar Luger," exported after the war. However, this looks like it came right from the battlefield and was in no way refinished or altered, just stamped "Germany" and shipped right out. How does this differ from all the Lugers which were refinished with dates and other markings removed, rebarreled to .30 caliber, and then stamped "Germany?" How much value does my Luger lose by being stamped for export?

02-12-2001, 08:14 PM	#3
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: DWM 1914 Rig Hi Aaron, The answer to your question is, "Not a dime." It sounds like what you have is the variation collectors commonly call a "1920 Commercial". While the majority of these seem to have been rebarreled to 7.65 Parabellum and to have had at least some attempt to remove the chamber date, there are examples with what appear to be their original 9 mm Parabellum barrels and untouched chamber dates. The location of the "GERMANY" is a bit unusual. I'd not have been surprised if it were under the sear bar lever (the actual safety that prevents the sear bar from moving with the safety applied), but it is quite unusual to find the "GERMANY" marking all the way back by the safety lever. I don't know that this odd location would have any effect on value, but it will likely cause some raised eyebrows and quizzical looks Hope this helps! Best regards, Kyrie

02-12-2001, 11:33 PM	#4
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: DWM 1914 Rig The two main parts of the safety are the safety bar and the safety lever. The part that prevents the sear bar from moving when the safety lever is applied is the safety bar. The Germans may have just lost the war, but they did not lose their sense of commerce. The DWM factory would never have sent a battle weary P08 to the United States to be sold as a new commercial pistol. The German economy was in desperate need of money, and the last thing they would want to do was to destroy an established market by selling a left over military pistol with all the military markings intact under the guise of being a new pistol. Some of the 1920 Commercial parts may have been left over military, but all military markings had been removed before refinish. The leftover military pistols stamped with the Reichswehr 1920 property mark have long been confused with the 1920 Commercial, but are in no way related.

02-12-2001, 11:43 PM	#5
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: DWM 1914 Rig It would be interesting to see the Germany stamp under the safety lever. On the military model the word Gesichert is stamped above the safety lever. I have seen a lot of WWI Lugers and have not seen one with Germany stamped anywhere on it (but then there is stuff out there that just keeps coming out of the woodwork for the first time).

02-13-2001, 01:43 AM	#6
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Re: DWM 1914 Rig You fellows are making me think I might have something unusual, as there is no doubt there is a Germany stamp near the safety lever. Actually, I passed this by Ralph Shattuck a couple of months ago, and he wasn't impressed much. He said it was a run of the mill Weimar Luger. Anyway, I will try to get some photos on this forum if I can figure out how to do it. Meanwhile, thanks for the comments.

02-12-2001, 07:19 PM	#2
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: DWM 1914 Rig I certainly haven't seen anywhere near all the Luger variations, but have never seen one stamped GERMANY under the safety. Is it possible that what you are seeing is Gesichert?

02-13-2001, 10:16 AM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Photographs to be posted Aaron, You can post your photo on a free site like Photopoint.com and then put the URL for the photo in the block below the text box called Optional Image Link and it will appear with your posted message. an alternative is to email the photo to Dok who is the webmaster and ask him to post in in the 'Owner's Corner" page. Instructions are at the top of that page. I would love to see these unique sounding stamps you have spoken of. If you problem is the lack of a digital camera, you can send the paper photo to Dok, or to me and one of us can convert it to digital so it can be posted. regards, -John

02-13-2001, 03:58 PM	#8
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: DWM 1914 Rig Hi Johnny, Alas, I'm afraid you are mistaken :-( While many (and quite possibly most) 1920 Commercials had all the military markings removed, a number did not. It's not unusual to find 1920 Commercials with both C/N and Imperial Army acceptance and proof, or only Imperial Army acceptance and proof. Also, while there was usually some effort to remove chamber dates these efforts were not always entirely successful. OTOH, you are right on target concerning the distinction between the 1920 Commercial variation and those pistols stamped with the Reichswehr 1920 property mark Regards, Kyrie

02-14-2001, 02:33 AM	#9
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Re: DWM 1914 Rig Have managed to take photos of this pistol, including markings, and have submitted them to the Owners' Corner. Those interested will hopefully see what we are discussing.