Officer's Luger

Jerry G. · 08-22-2002, 10:38 PM

OK, I have now heard from several people about "officer's" Lugers. Several people have told me that these are different, somehow readily identifiable, and command a premium price. Others have told me that there is no such thing. What's the deal here?

Garfield · 08-23-2002, 01:01 AM

Jerry:

Ask those people who say they exist to explain how these "officers" model lugers differ from those issued to the grunts and to detail the "identifying" marks. I do not think that they can.

Best,

LP08 · 08-23-2002, 01:45 AM

There is nothing to distinguish an officer's luger from a machine gunner's luger or other soldier's luger. If records ever appear that link a unit stamping to an individual then some pre-1934 lugers will be identifiable to an officer. Sometimes personal military documents list a gun's serial number and could identify a luger to an officer. The lugers, though, are not different based on rank of the soldier.

lugerholsterrepair · 08-23-2002, 01:47 AM

Jerry, I agree with Garfield, Ask them to explain these markers...Either they can put up or shut up so they say. I believe they will be unable to explain themselves or it will be some **** and bull. Jerry Burney

Edward Tinker · 08-23-2002, 11:12 AM

Another "myth" down the drain Tac sir?

Although the Germans have always been careful and meticulous, in war, I am sure that many people were just issued whatever was available, and although WE love the Luger, the P38 coming out was the NEW pistol and if given the choice, practically all the officers I know, will take a new gun over an obsolete one? And most people, not being subjected to front line duty, are more inclined to carry a smaller pistol, compared to a larger P08, thus the 7.65's and other smaller guns.

Given a Luger or nothing, an officer would I imagine take a Luger gladly and use it for effect when needed. A pistol is not your choice in combat, unless it is in-close and in a room, and given a choice I would take a MP38, Thompson or whatever, instead of a pistol into the fray, AFTER tossing a grenade.

Pete Ebbink · 08-23-2002, 11:36 AM

On the Simpsonltd.com web site; there is advertised a Dutch luger without the brass side plate that is described as an officer's weapon.

Might Bob or Brad Simpson shed some light ?

Ron Wood · 08-23-2002, 11:49 AM

Pete,
Quoting Martens & de Vries: "All pistols, holsters, magazine pouches and pistol accessories of the Dutch East Indies Army were fitted with a so-called unit mark and weapon number when they entered service. The only exceptions were pistols and equipment given on loan to, or purchased privately by officers and NCO's."

Pete Ebbink · 08-24-2002, 12:26 PM

Thanks, Ron...

For steering me to the Dutch Luger book...

Regards,

Pete <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

George Anderson · 08-24-2002, 01:47 PM

Officer Lugers. Okay here we go...I have seen numerous photos of WWII officers armed with Lugers. While PP's were nice to carry, a front line officer (company rank) would in all liklihood carry a combat pistol (9mm) and not a seven shot .32 cal.

So much for the second war. In the Imperial Army officers were required to buy, not only their uniforms and equipment but also, their sidearms. Given this, one can assume that any unit marked Imperial pistol was NOT that of an officer. Any other Luger, except LP08's and P04's could have belonged to an officer.

I have, in my collection, a rather unique P08. It is a first version serial number 2607b with number placement in the civilian pattern. Military proofs on the left barrel extension in 99% condition. Neither sear relieved nor hold-open added. So it is as issued.

The clincher is that this pistol is marked on the REAR grip strap "Offzstllv.M.Plank." Klaus Schadt says that this represents Offizierstellvertreter M. Plank, a rating between top NCO and officer. Klaus states that it is not an officer candidate though.

Given the 1908 configuration of the pistol, it was no doubt issued in 1908 or 1909. The German Army, as well as the lesser combatants, suffered horrendous officer attrition during the early months of the war. The German reaction was to loosen the strictures on promoting NCO's into the officer ranks.

I have a 1912 copy of the Rang-Liste for the Royal Prussian Army and the XIII. Royal Wuertemberger Army Corps. In this volume there is only one officer with that name; he was a Lt. Plank(no initial)in the 65th field artillery regiment of the Wuertemberger Army. Klaus was able to use his refernces and find a very few Plank's. One of those he found was in the II. Bavarian Infantry Regiment and was killed in action in 1916. This search goes on.

A few questions...did only Bavaria not modify the 08's with hold opens? Did Bavaria also not modify the sear? Would an officer have been required to submit his pistol for modification?

I would be delighted to post photos of this as well as other Lugers of mine, but alas, I can't figure it out.

George Anderson · 08-24-2002, 09:43 PM

I appreciate your translation. Any idea about Bavaria's actions or policy regarding hold opens, etc?

Jan C Still · 08-25-2002, 01:43 AM

George
To date, all the Imperial unit marked Bavarian Lugers reported (with hold open information given) do not have the hold open added. All the unit marked lugers from Prussia, Wurttenburg, and Saxony have the hold open added (with one exception). I do not think that sear bars of pre1916 manufactured Lugers were returned to an arsenal or the factory during WW I to be modified.

Nazi collectors have reported that during the Nazi era officers used brown holsters. It is also report that brown holsters went to the Luftwaffe. I dont think this is consistent with the number of brown holsters reported or the gradation in color from brown to black. I have not followed up these reports to determine if they are correct. My opinion is that they are not.

As almost all pre 1916 Imperial Luger holsters are some shade of brown, some distinction between officers and the rest seems unlikley.
Jan

Doubs · 08-25-2002, 02:28 AM

[quote]Originally posted by George Anderson:
<strong>Officer Lugers. Okay here we go...I have seen numerous photos of WWII officers armed with Lugers. While PP's were nice to carry, a front line officer (company rank) would in all liklihood carry a combat pistol (9mm) and not a seven shot .32 cal.</strong><hr></blockquote>

George, while growing up, my next door neighbor was a veteran of the 17th Airborne Division, Glider Infantry. He made the crossing of the Rhine assault (Operation "Varsity") and was in the Wessel area. His squad was detailed to take and hold a bridge across one of the many canals in the area. At the far end of the bridge was a stone house that also had a barn built into the back of it. The house was defended by German troops. They managed to cross the bridge - the longest run of his life, he told me - without losing anyone and laid seige to the house. The Germans refused to come out and surender until a bazooka was fired into the straw of the barn part and started a fire. When the Germans gave up, the Americans were surprised to find that they were badly outnumbered! It was here that my friend took a J.P. Sauer & Sohns 7.65mm pistol and holster from a German soldier who had surrendered. (Model 38-H?) Anyway, it's been years since I heard the story and I can't recall the rank of the soldier who carried the pistol. My friend is still living and I'll try to find out.

Carl · 08-25-2002, 10:56 AM

To all,
I have a brown rig (holster, belt/police buckle, police bayonet) with the G date Luger. Bough the whole rig from a tank sargent who captured the rural policeman.

Roadkill · 08-25-2002, 11:40 AM

A repeated determinant of historical misconception is the application of current perspective to events in the past. The US Army of WWII was made up of draftees from predominantly rural backgrounds. Those with education were immediately classified for officer programs. They were the sons of the depression. All they knew about the German Army was what they were told. Soldiers are immediately taught that insignias are symbols of authority. The ration of officer to enlisted was approximately 225 to one. (Now its 17 to one). Predominately only officers in the US Army, field grade and up, carried pistols. Therefore only high officers had pistols in the German army. Combat acquisition of a firearm and retaining it is very difficult. A friends father was with the 82nd in Normandy, followed a Sherman thru a hedgerow, grenaded a MG position, hanging on a limb was a full Luger rig. He picked it up, went 10 yds, a MG 42 opened up, dropped it, never saw it again. I said all that to say that officers had pistols, pistols were symbols of authority, therefore the current theme was the pistol belonged to an officer. How many Nambus were carried by enlisted soldiers? We know better, they didn't.

RK

Carl · 08-25-2002, 02:57 PM

RK,
I have been picking souvenirs from vets for over 50 years and you would be amazed at what they brought home. All with interesting stories. Of course some of the stories are streached a bit a little like the fish that keeps getting bigger with each with each sucessive telling. Combat line troops were the poorest pickers, they had neither the time or the wherewithall to carry pieces. Rear echelion had it easier. The best comes from the occupation as the war was ending or just after. When a chocolate bar would get anything. I'm 71 so I was just behind these fellows. I'm thankfull Truman made the decision to drop the bomb.

08-22-2002, 10:38 PM	#1
Jerry G. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 41 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Officer's Luger OK, I have now heard from several people about "officer's" Lugers. Several people have told me that these are different, somehow readily identifiable, and command a premium price. Others have told me that there is no such thing. What's the deal here?

08-23-2002, 01:47 AM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Jerry, I agree with Garfield, Ask them to explain these markers...Either they can put up or shut up so they say. I believe they will be unable to explain themselves or it will be some **** and bull. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-23-2002, 11:12 AM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Another "myth" down the drain Tac sir? Although the Germans have always been careful and meticulous, in war, I am sure that many people were just issued whatever was available, and although WE love the Luger, the P38 coming out was the NEW pistol and if given the choice, practically all the officers I know, will take a new gun over an obsolete one? And most people, not being subjected to front line duty, are more inclined to carry a smaller pistol, compared to a larger P08, thus the 7.65's and other smaller guns. Given a Luger or nothing, an officer would I imagine take a Luger gladly and use it for effect when needed. A pistol is not your choice in combat, unless it is in-close and in a room, and given a choice I would take a MP38, Thompson or whatever, instead of a pistol into the fray, AFTER tossing a grenade. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-23-2002, 11:49 AM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Pete, Quoting Martens & de Vries: "All pistols, holsters, magazine pouches and pistol accessories of the Dutch East Indies Army were fitted with a so-called unit mark and weapon number when they entered service. The only exceptions were pistols and equipment given on loan to, or purchased privately by officers and NCO's." __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-23-2002, 01:01 AM	#2
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jerry: Ask those people who say they exist to explain how these "officers" model lugers differ from those issued to the grunts and to detail the "identifying" marks. I do not think that they can. Best,

08-23-2002, 01:45 AM	#3
LP08 User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 71 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	There is nothing to distinguish an officer's luger from a machine gunner's luger or other soldier's luger. If records ever appear that link a unit stamping to an individual then some pre-1934 lugers will be identifiable to an officer. Sometimes personal military documents list a gun's serial number and could identify a luger to an officer. The lugers, though, are not different based on rank of the soldier.

08-23-2002, 11:36 AM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	On the Simpsonltd.com web site; there is advertised a Dutch luger without the brass side plate that is described as an officer's weapon. Might Bob or Brad Simpson shed some light ?

08-24-2002, 12:26 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks, Ron... For steering me to the Dutch Luger book... Regards, Pete <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-24-2002, 01:47 PM	#9
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Officer Lugers. Okay here we go...I have seen numerous photos of WWII officers armed with Lugers. While PP's were nice to carry, a front line officer (company rank) would in all liklihood carry a combat pistol (9mm) and not a seven shot .32 cal. So much for the second war. In the Imperial Army officers were required to buy, not only their uniforms and equipment but also, their sidearms. Given this, one can assume that any unit marked Imperial pistol was NOT that of an officer. Any other Luger, except LP08's and P04's could have belonged to an officer. I have, in my collection, a rather unique P08. It is a first version serial number 2607b with number placement in the civilian pattern. Military proofs on the left barrel extension in 99% condition. Neither sear relieved nor hold-open added. So it is as issued. The clincher is that this pistol is marked on the REAR grip strap "Offzstllv.M.Plank." Klaus Schadt says that this represents Offizierstellvertreter M. Plank, a rating between top NCO and officer. Klaus states that it is not an officer candidate though. Given the 1908 configuration of the pistol, it was no doubt issued in 1908 or 1909. The German Army, as well as the lesser combatants, suffered horrendous officer attrition during the early months of the war. The German reaction was to loosen the strictures on promoting NCO's into the officer ranks. I have a 1912 copy of the Rang-Liste for the Royal Prussian Army and the XIII. Royal Wuertemberger Army Corps. In this volume there is only one officer with that name; he was a Lt. Plank(no initial)in the 65th field artillery regiment of the Wuertemberger Army. Klaus was able to use his refernces and find a very few Plank's. One of those he found was in the II. Bavarian Infantry Regiment and was killed in action in 1916. This search goes on. A few questions...did only Bavaria not modify the 08's with hold opens? Did Bavaria also not modify the sear? Would an officer have been required to submit his pistol for modification? I would be delighted to post photos of this as well as other Lugers of mine, but alas, I can't figure it out.

08-24-2002, 09:43 PM	#10
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	I appreciate your translation. Any idea about Bavaria's actions or policy regarding hold opens, etc?

08-25-2002, 01:43 AM	#11
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	George To date, all the Imperial unit marked Bavarian Lugers reported (with hold open information given) do not have the hold open added. All the unit marked lugers from Prussia, Wurttenburg, and Saxony have the hold open added (with one exception). I do not think that sear bars of pre1916 manufactured Lugers were returned to an arsenal or the factory during WW I to be modified. Nazi collectors have reported that during the Nazi era officers used brown holsters. It is also report that brown holsters went to the Luftwaffe. I dont think this is consistent with the number of brown holsters reported or the gradation in color from brown to black. I have not followed up these reports to determine if they are correct. My opinion is that they are not. As almost all pre 1916 Imperial Luger holsters are some shade of brown, some distinction between officers and the rest seems unlikley. Jan

08-25-2002, 02:28 AM	#12
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by George Anderson: <strong>Officer Lugers. Okay here we go...I have seen numerous photos of WWII officers armed with Lugers. While PP's were nice to carry, a front line officer (company rank) would in all liklihood carry a combat pistol (9mm) and not a seven shot .32 cal.</strong><hr></blockquote> George, while growing up, my next door neighbor was a veteran of the 17th Airborne Division, Glider Infantry. He made the crossing of the Rhine assault (Operation "Varsity") and was in the Wessel area. His squad was detailed to take and hold a bridge across one of the many canals in the area. At the far end of the bridge was a stone house that also had a barn built into the back of it. The house was defended by German troops. They managed to cross the bridge - the longest run of his life, he told me - without losing anyone and laid seige to the house. The Germans refused to come out and surender until a bazooka was fired into the straw of the barn part and started a fire. When the Germans gave up, the Americans were surprised to find that they were badly outnumbered! It was here that my friend took a J.P. Sauer & Sohns 7.65mm pistol and holster from a German soldier who had surrendered. (Model 38-H?) Anyway, it's been years since I heard the story and I can't recall the rank of the soldier who carried the pistol. My friend is still living and I'll try to find out.

08-25-2002, 10:56 AM	#13
Carl User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central PA Posts: 113 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	To all, I have a brown rig (holster, belt/police buckle, police bayonet) with the G date Luger. Bough the whole rig from a tank sargent who captured the rural policeman.

08-25-2002, 11:40 AM	#14
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	A repeated determinant of historical misconception is the application of current perspective to events in the past. The US Army of WWII was made up of draftees from predominantly rural backgrounds. Those with education were immediately classified for officer programs. They were the sons of the depression. All they knew about the German Army was what they were told. Soldiers are immediately taught that insignias are symbols of authority. The ration of officer to enlisted was approximately 225 to one. (Now its 17 to one). Predominately only officers in the US Army, field grade and up, carried pistols. Therefore only high officers had pistols in the German army. Combat acquisition of a firearm and retaining it is very difficult. A friends father was with the 82nd in Normandy, followed a Sherman thru a hedgerow, grenaded a MG position, hanging on a limb was a full Luger rig. He picked it up, went 10 yds, a MG 42 opened up, dropped it, never saw it again. I said all that to say that officers had pistols, pistols were symbols of authority, therefore the current theme was the pistol belonged to an officer. How many Nambus were carried by enlisted soldiers? We know better, they didn't. RK

08-25-2002, 02:57 PM	#15
Carl User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central PA Posts: 113 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	RK, I have been picking souvenirs from vets for over 50 years and you would be amazed at what they brought home. All with interesting stories. Of course some of the stories are streached a bit a little like the fish that keeps getting bigger with each with each sucessive telling. Combat line troops were the poorest pickers, they had neither the time or the wherewithall to carry pieces. Rear echelion had it easier. The best comes from the occupation as the war was ending or just after. When a chocolate bar would get anything. I'm 71 so I was just behind these fellows. I'm thankfull Truman made the decision to drop the bomb.