1915 '08 question

Stew · 03-14-2004, 03:33 PM

this one has O.R.J.3 marked on the front of the grip. Any ideas what this signifies. Thanks
Regards Stew

Herb · 03-14-2004, 09:56 PM

I'll make a guess here--
O = Ostasiatiches (East Asian)
R = Infantry Regiment
J = beats me
3 = Weapon number three
What has me confused with this one is the J.
There is a marking with it - O.J. which means the same thing as above except the J stands for Jaeger Battalion.

George Anderson · 03-15-2004, 08:10 AM

All German troops in East Asia had been defeated, captured or were being chased about the Indian Ocean in 1914. Very unlikely that 1915 dated pistols were being newly issued in East Asia or for that matter, Africa.

Vlim · 03-15-2004, 08:25 AM

How about:

Officier Reitschule Jaegers No 3

Basically, it's virtually impossible to give a good description without knowing:

-The age of the gun
-The placement, type and shape of the lettering/numbering
-The shape of the gun (police/army/etc..)

So adding this info to a decoding request (preferably a photographed one) will help.

Herb · 03-15-2004, 01:14 PM

Tacfoley, not my idea, the info came from Jeff Noll's book 'The Imperial German Regimental Marking' I failed to mention that in my post. I wondered about that asian connection also. There is no entry for the info provided by Vlimmeren so I can't comment on that.

Stew · 03-15-2004, 03:34 PM

Hi Herb,tac,George and GvV.
thanks for your help. The '08 has come up in a New Zealand auction catalogue ,so no pix are available.
However it is described as having a 4" barrel and its serial# is 8711.It is described as 95% original finish.
I am a newby to Lugers and this forum so thankyou for your help and comments.
Regards Stew

John Sabato · 03-15-2004, 04:16 PM

Stew, Welcome to the Lugerforum. You need to look up one of our long time members and collectors, Murray Willis... He is also from New Zealand... and might be able to educate you on the ins and outs of collecting these masterpieces in your country...

Search each forum for "Murray" and you may come across his contact information, or at the very least can send him a private message...

John Sabato · 03-16-2004, 02:23 PM

TAC,

Could the Imperial German Army soldiers in question here have possibly been security personnel or attache's in foreign embassies? Just a guess.

George Anderson · 03-16-2004, 03:52 PM

Tac, not the Imperial Army but rather Navy and Colonial troops in Tsingtao on the coast of China, taken by the Japs, and a smattering of Pacific islands that were used primarily as coaling posts. The New Zealanders and Australians took some of the latter.

Herb · 03-16-2004, 05:37 PM

A little info, Von Epp was assigned to the 4th East Asian Infantry Regiment in 1900, so at least one regiment existed for some purpose. This was in China.
http://216.239 ]http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:QJQJV5_fb0cJ:www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D7915%26start%3D0+%22east+asian+infantry+regiment%22& hl=en&ie=UTF-8]http://216.239[/UR L] .37.104/search?q=cache:QJQJV5_fb0cJ:www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D7915%26start%3D0+%22east+asian+infantry+regiment%22& hl=en&ie=UTF-8
also see- http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/text/x07/xm0701.html

Now that I have established that the East Asian Infantry Regiment(s) actually existed and the grip marking might stand for that it still does not explain the 'J'. In Nolls book he indicates that J.R. stands for Infantry Regiment and Jager Regiment and that the J. stands for Jager-battalion
those are not compatable with this stamping.

Vlim · 03-17-2004, 07:30 AM

Hi,

The only China-marking I've seen is depicted in Gortz's 'German Small Arms Markings' and depicts a Navy with 'Gouv. Kieau 246". German-kept China territory was administered by the Navy. And since they were kicked out of china in November, 1914 I doubt that a 1915 P08 would have Eastern Asian markings.

Other colonial lugers shows Sch.D.O.A. (thought to represent Deutsches Ost Afrika) and L.P. (landespolizei). Problem is that both do not appear to be in line with the O.R.J. inscription shown here. Another problem is that there are no official sources about German colonial markings.

The book also mentions a number of 'O' possibilities, and they are 'Oberkommand' or 'Offizier-' (for officer's schools).

The representation of 'J' for Jaeger is generally accepted, 'R' can depict Regiment, Reserve, Reitschule or depending on the date a district.

The exact dimensions and form of the lettering would help a lot, as mentioned earlier.

Jeff Noll · 03-18-2004, 12:27 AM

All, Very interesting discussion on a very unusual marking. I am going to have to think about this a bit but the first thing that comes to my mind is that the catalog this pistol is listed in may have misread/misprinted the marking. More than a couple of times I have spent time researching a marking only to find out is was reported incorrectly. Other questions are:

1) Is the "R" a Roman font or a Script? Script would indicate "Reserve" such as Ostasiatiches Reserve-Jaeger-Bataillon, Waffe Nr. 3

2) Is the "3" a small number indicating a weapon number or is it nearly the height of the letters?

I do not believe it is a Offizier-Reitschulen. These schools were at Paderborn, Soltau, Dresden, Sprottau and Beeskow. If there were a school in a town beginning with a "J" it would be a different story.

Likewise I agree with George A. that the Deutsche Ostasiatiches activity was nearly dead in 1915.

Is there any way to confirm this marking? w/r Jeff Noll

Stew · 03-20-2004, 03:39 PM

Hi All,
It has occurred to me also that the catalogue may have had a typo .I will not be able to verify this until 3 April which is the day of the auction.Thanks for your help.
Regards Stew

03-14-2004, 03:33 PM	#1
Stew New User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Auckland, NZ Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1915 '08 question this one has O.R.J.3 marked on the front of the grip. Any ideas what this signifies. Thanks Regards Stew

03-14-2004, 09:56 PM	#2
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I'll make a guess here-- O = Ostasiatiches (East Asian) R = Infantry Regiment J = beats me 3 = Weapon number three What has me confused with this one is the J. There is a marking with it - O.J. which means the same thing as above except the J stands for Jaeger Battalion. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

03-15-2004, 01:14 PM	#5
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Tacfoley, not my idea, the info came from Jeff Noll's book 'The Imperial German Regimental Marking' I failed to mention that in my post. I wondered about that asian connection also. There is no entry for the info provided by Vlimmeren so I can't comment on that. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

03-15-2004, 04:16 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Stew, Welcome to the Lugerforum. You need to look up one of our long time members and collectors, Murray Willis... He is also from New Zealand... and might be able to educate you on the ins and outs of collecting these masterpieces in your country... Search each forum for "Murray" and you may come across his contact information, or at the very least can send him a private message... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-16-2004, 02:23 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	TAC, Could the Imperial German Army soldiers in question here have possibly been security personnel or attache's in foreign embassies? Just a guess. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-15-2004, 08:10 AM	#3
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	All German troops in East Asia had been defeated, captured or were being chased about the Indian Ocean in 1914. Very unlikely that 1915 dated pistols were being newly issued in East Asia or for that matter, Africa.

03-15-2004, 08:25 AM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,034 Thanks: 1,020 Thanked 3,882 Times in 1,186 Posts	How about: Officier Reitschule Jaegers No 3 Basically, it's virtually impossible to give a good description without knowing: -The age of the gun -The placement, type and shape of the lettering/numbering -The shape of the gun (police/army/etc..) So adding this info to a decoding request (preferably a photographed one) will help.

03-15-2004, 03:34 PM	#6
Stew New User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Auckland, NZ Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Herb,tac,George and GvV. thanks for your help. The '08 has come up in a New Zealand auction catalogue ,so no pix are available. However it is described as having a 4" barrel and its serial# is 8711.It is described as 95% original finish. I am a newby to Lugers and this forum so thankyou for your help and comments. Regards Stew

03-16-2004, 03:52 PM	#9
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Tac, not the Imperial Army but rather Navy and Colonial troops in Tsingtao on the coast of China, taken by the Japs, and a smattering of Pacific islands that were used primarily as coaling posts. The New Zealanders and Australians took some of the latter.

03-16-2004, 05:37 PM	#10
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	A little info, Von Epp was assigned to the 4th East Asian Infantry Regiment in 1900, so at least one regiment existed for some purpose. This was in China. http://216.239 ]http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:QJQJV5_fb0cJ:www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D7915%26start%3D0+%22east+asian+infantry+regiment%22& hl=en&ie=UTF-8]http://216.239[/UR L] .37.104/search?q=cache:QJQJV5_fb0cJ:www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php%3Ft%3D7915%26start%3D0+%22east+asian+infantry+regiment%22& hl=en&ie=UTF-8 also see- http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/text/x07/xm0701.html Now that I have established that the East Asian Infantry Regiment(s) actually existed and the grip marking might stand for that it still does not explain the 'J'. In Nolls book he indicates that J.R. stands for Infantry Regiment and Jager Regiment and that the J. stands for Jager-battalion those are not compatable with this stamping. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

03-17-2004, 07:30 AM	#11
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,034 Thanks: 1,020 Thanked 3,882 Times in 1,186 Posts	Hi, The only China-marking I've seen is depicted in Gortz's 'German Small Arms Markings' and depicts a Navy with 'Gouv. Kieau 246". German-kept China territory was administered by the Navy. And since they were kicked out of china in November, 1914 I doubt that a 1915 P08 would have Eastern Asian markings. Other colonial lugers shows Sch.D.O.A. (thought to represent Deutsches Ost Afrika) and L.P. (landespolizei). Problem is that both do not appear to be in line with the O.R.J. inscription shown here. Another problem is that there are no official sources about German colonial markings. The book also mentions a number of 'O' possibilities, and they are 'Oberkommand' or 'Offizier-' (for officer's schools). The representation of 'J' for Jaeger is generally accepted, 'R' can depict Regiment, Reserve, Reitschule or depending on the date a district. The exact dimensions and form of the lettering would help a lot, as mentioned earlier.

03-18-2004, 12:27 AM	#12
Jeff Noll User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ventura, California Posts: 45 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 7 Posts	All, Very interesting discussion on a very unusual marking. I am going to have to think about this a bit but the first thing that comes to my mind is that the catalog this pistol is listed in may have misread/misprinted the marking. More than a couple of times I have spent time researching a marking only to find out is was reported incorrectly. Other questions are: 1) Is the "R" a Roman font or a Script? Script would indicate "Reserve" such as Ostasiatiches Reserve-Jaeger-Bataillon, Waffe Nr. 3 2) Is the "3" a small number indicating a weapon number or is it nearly the height of the letters? I do not believe it is a Offizier-Reitschulen. These schools were at Paderborn, Soltau, Dresden, Sprottau and Beeskow. If there were a school in a town beginning with a "J" it would be a different story. Likewise I agree with George A. that the Deutsche Ostasiatiches activity was nearly dead in 1915. Is there any way to confirm this marking? w/r Jeff Noll

03-20-2004, 03:39 PM	#13
Stew New User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Auckland, NZ Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi All, It has occurred to me also that the catalogue may have had a typo .I will not be able to verify this until 3 April which is the day of the auction.Thanks for your help. Regards Stew