Wood Color, Grips and Bottoms???

G.T. · 07-11-2004, 11:35 AM

Hi to All! It would seem that everyone who looks at Luger wood, sees a different picture, both of what it is, and also what it should be! I think that sometimes in our quest for correctness, we overlook the obvious.. And that is, most likely, that very little was done to the wood to finish or preserve it, or protect it from use! I personally believe, after examining 100's of original magazine bottoms, that very little was done in this area.. I do think the following to be most possible... 1) I believe a definite effort was made to select excellent quality European Walnut heartwood of a uniform color and grain.. 2) I believe they also took great pains to make sure the lumber was sawn the same way, most likely riff cut.. 3) I believe any finish type was fast & fuss free... as in Linseed oil with a dryer, Danish type oil, and at times, a very thin, fast drying varnish... I don't think it mattered, only that it was fast, and not messy... probably batch done, heat dryed... I have on rare occasion seen reminents of varnish on the top parts of P.08 mag. bottoms that were never before removed from the magazine shell, until I got my grubby little paws on them! And they definitly showed signs of a non-penatrating finish, but it was very rare... so that would explain the normal soft, or satin look to most Luger wood... Less is more, so to speak.. How about color? 1) again, uniform wood selection. 2) very,very light analine dye (in with the finish)... again, less is more.. Tone contrast? This is a tough area... this is where we talk ourselves into things... somehow, we have the perception that Luger wood should be dark if it is old! Well, it didn't start out dark.. the color/tone of the backside of the grip, is the same as the front side was, when it was new! The difference should be significant, but not drastic.. Also, 100 years of age, is almost impossible to reproduce, without 100 years of time!! Handling, oils, sweat, grease, grit & grime all add to the ageing effect you now see! That is NOT the same as stains or dyes that usually hide the grain, or provide a cloudy cover... Burnishing from use is also a factor... actually a big one, and again, is something that can only be accomplished with use and time... So I guess the point of this little speal, is, don't have a set color in your mind as a benchmark.. Better yet, is to use the color on a protected area of the wood part, and draw your conclusions comparing the rest of the object in question, to that area! Commercial units may have a different set of parameters.. but I'm pretty set on the military stuff! Best to all, til...lat'r...GT

Vlim · 07-11-2004, 12:27 PM

Hi,

I can confirm that DWM used walnut from Southern-France up until 1917, when they switched to local beech wood for the duration of the war as the result of shortages, as the route from Southern-France was blocked by some trenches

A document on German rifleproduction indeed mentions the oiling and polishing 'einoelen und polieren' of finished shafts as a production step. Not too big a step to assume the same operation was performed on wooden pistol parts.

Below is an image of Mauser's rifle shaft shop, about 1913. Equipment for creation of wooden gun parts was supplied by Loewe, later by DWM and consisted of copying machinery and drilling equipment, often built-up to process 3 to 5 parts in one action. Creation of a Mauser rifle stock took some 55 actions on 50 machines.

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/shaftmaking.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/shaftmaking.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

This is an actual Loewe advert, confirming the fact that Loewe developed and sold the equipment for gun production.

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/loewe_advert_small_copy1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/loewe_advert_small_copy1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

G.T. · 07-11-2004, 01:16 PM

Hi Gerben! Does it say anything about what they used for a finish?? Color Dye?? Or what was specified?? I have found it takes 25 seperate steps to make a P.08 mag. bottom, if you do it like they did! Thanks for the interesting look Gerben! best to you, til...lat'r....GT

Hugh · 07-12-2004, 12:20 PM

Seems that I read somewhere that Luger grips were made from wood scaps left over from Mauser rifle stock production.

Vlim · 07-12-2004, 02:42 PM

GT,

Sorry. They just mentioned oiling them, not with what.

Hugh,

Haven't seen official references but it's not too hard to imagine they found a good use for as much of the wood as possible.

I remember working for a brush company that made nailbrushes and dishwashing brushes from wood leftovers.

Vlim · 07-17-2004, 10:02 AM

Hi,

I found a new reference that might shed some light on the finishing used on German firearm wood in the pre-WW1 era (and most probably until wood substitutes were introduced).

The material was stuff called 'holzbeize', in Dutch we call it 'beits', (wood stain or mordant?).

The quote:

"Auch der Schaftarbeiter verwendet manchmal
braune Holzbeizen, um die Farbe des Holzes zu verschÃ?Â¶nern."
--Moderne Gewehrfabrikation, 1913.

"The shaft workers also usually use brown wood stain to enhance the color of the wood"

07-11-2004, 11:35 AM	#1
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,486 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,583 Times in 989 Posts	Wood Color, Grips and Bottoms??? Hi to All! It would seem that everyone who looks at Luger wood, sees a different picture, both of what it is, and also what it should be! I think that sometimes in our quest for correctness, we overlook the obvious.. And that is, most likely, that very little was done to the wood to finish or preserve it, or protect it from use! I personally believe, after examining 100's of original magazine bottoms, that very little was done in this area.. I do think the following to be most possible... 1) I believe a definite effort was made to select excellent quality European Walnut heartwood of a uniform color and grain.. 2) I believe they also took great pains to make sure the lumber was sawn the same way, most likely riff cut.. 3) I believe any finish type was fast & fuss free... as in Linseed oil with a dryer, Danish type oil, and at times, a very thin, fast drying varnish... I don't think it mattered, only that it was fast, and not messy... probably batch done, heat dryed... I have on rare occasion seen reminents of varnish on the top parts of P.08 mag. bottoms that were never before removed from the magazine shell, until I got my grubby little paws on them! And they definitly showed signs of a non-penatrating finish, but it was very rare... so that would explain the normal soft, or satin look to most Luger wood... Less is more, so to speak.. How about color? 1) again, uniform wood selection. 2) very,very light analine dye (in with the finish)... again, less is more.. Tone contrast? This is a tough area... this is where we talk ourselves into things... somehow, we have the perception that Luger wood should be dark if it is old! Well, it didn't start out dark.. the color/tone of the backside of the grip, is the same as the front side was, when it was new! The difference should be significant, but not drastic.. Also, 100 years of age, is almost impossible to reproduce, without 100 years of time!! Handling, oils, sweat, grease, grit & grime all add to the ageing effect you now see! That is NOT the same as stains or dyes that usually hide the grain, or provide a cloudy cover... Burnishing from use is also a factor... actually a big one, and again, is something that can only be accomplished with use and time... So I guess the point of this little speal, is, don't have a set color in your mind as a benchmark.. Better yet, is to use the color on a protected area of the wood part, and draw your conclusions comparing the rest of the object in question, to that area! Commercial units may have a different set of parameters.. but I'm pretty set on the military stuff! Best to all, til...lat'r...GT

07-12-2004, 12:20 PM	#4
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Seems that I read somewhere that Luger grips were made from wood scaps left over from Mauser rifle stock production. __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

07-11-2004, 12:27 PM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,034 Thanks: 1,020 Thanked 3,882 Times in 1,186 Posts	Hi, I can confirm that DWM used walnut from Southern-France up until 1917, when they switched to local beech wood for the duration of the war as the result of shortages, as the route from Southern-France was blocked by some trenches A document on German rifleproduction indeed mentions the oiling and polishing 'einoelen und polieren' of finished shafts as a production step. Not too big a step to assume the same operation was performed on wooden pistol parts. Below is an image of Mauser's rifle shaft shop, about 1913. Equipment for creation of wooden gun parts was supplied by Loewe, later by DWM and consisted of copying machinery and drilling equipment, often built-up to process 3 to 5 parts in one action. Creation of a Mauser rifle stock took some 55 actions on 50 machines. <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/shaftmaking.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/shaftmaking.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> This is an actual Loewe advert, confirming the fact that Loewe developed and sold the equipment for gun production. <a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/loewe_advert_small_copy1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/loewe_advert_small_copy1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

07-11-2004, 01:16 PM	#3
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,486 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,583 Times in 989 Posts	Hi Gerben! Does it say anything about what they used for a finish?? Color Dye?? Or what was specified?? I have found it takes 25 seperate steps to make a P.08 mag. bottom, if you do it like they did! Thanks for the interesting look Gerben! best to you, til...lat'r....GT

07-12-2004, 02:42 PM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,034 Thanks: 1,020 Thanked 3,882 Times in 1,186 Posts	GT, Sorry. They just mentioned oiling them, not with what. Hugh, Haven't seen official references but it's not too hard to imagine they found a good use for as much of the wood as possible. I remember working for a brush company that made nailbrushes and dishwashing brushes from wood leftovers.

07-17-2004, 10:02 AM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,034 Thanks: 1,020 Thanked 3,882 Times in 1,186 Posts	Hi, I found a new reference that might shed some light on the finishing used on German firearm wood in the pre-WW1 era (and most probably until wood substitutes were introduced). The material was stuff called 'holzbeize', in Dutch we call it 'beits', (wood stain or mordant?). The quote: "Auch der Schaftarbeiter verwendet manchmal braune Holzbeizen, um die Farbe des Holzes zu verschÃ?Â¶nern." --Moderne Gewehrfabrikation, 1913. "The shaft workers also usually use brown wood stain to enhance the color of the wood"