Reattach Dutch Unit Plate

[Gudabeg]

I was handling my Dutch 1928 Luger and the unit plate detached.

What is the best way to repair it? It seems like it was originally attached with an adhesive and it finally gave out.

[wlyon]

Brownells sells a product for attaching something like that. Can't remember the name. I remember it needed to be in a frig once it was opened. Bill

[Edward Tinker]

I can't imagine they were originally held on with adhesive in 1928 and earlier..... Although that is how I would reattach it also.

[lugerholsterrepair]

From my observations of these they appear to be soldered originally? But unless you really know something about that process I would use a temporary reversable method until you come to a firm conclusion.

[Gudabeg]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

From my observations of these they appear to be soldered originally? But unless you really know something about that process I would use a temporary reversable method until you come to a firm conclusion.

Looking at the unit plate, it looks far more like an adhesive or epoxy than solder.

[Gudabeg]

Phoenix Investments claims they were braised on.

https://phoenixinvestmentarms.com/1487Dutch.htm

Maybe I should use epoxy? I feel like rebraising has a significant chance to damage the gun.

[G.T.]

Back then, they didn't have super adhesives for metal? At least not that I'm aware of. I would think soft soldered, and rust blue touch up. Ooooorrrr, silver solder and total frame re-blue, rust or salt...
My guess for now, epoxy should hold it on tight and square, just no sharp knocks, the epoxy will part clean! Just like it was intended to part like it was molded smooth! ... best, til...lat'r.....GT

[Vlim]

They were soldered on. The fact that this plate came off easy and the metal underneath is not that bad, most probably means that the plate is not original to the gun.

Quite a few pistols had the plates removed and you can find removed plates now and again.

So I think somebody 'married' the pistol and plate.

[mrerick]

The adhesive shown in your photo may be clear, so it might be epoxy.

There are a number of grades of epoxy available, and adhesive built up on the plate may be an issue if not removed before you try and adhere it again.

Unfortunately, beyond using it to repair and stabilize cracked bakelite grips, I don't have experience with reattaching a plate like that.

Especially considering Gerben's thoughts, it might be best to just store them together, but not try and reattach the plate.

[spangy]

OMG Gudabeg ... what a depressing roller coaster ride of joy and pain. .... sorry for your troubles.

The good news is I think that your gun is a genuine dutch Luger ... the fact the 'plate' has been removed at some point does not necessarily mean it was done with evil intent.

I can see some novice owner not understanding the plates importance and removing it for purely cosmetic reasons ... mores the pity. and then re-attaching it/one for the sale.

What would I do ???

1st

Originally Posted by mrerick

adhesive built up on the plate may be an issue if not removed before you try and adhere it again.

Not wanting to apply any heat I would forgo the use of soldering or brazing at this time.

In my youth I used to use a wonderful product from Goodyear rubber called 'Pliobond' to successfully bond metals .

It is a simple to use solvent based contact cement that bonds most materials but specifically metals.

You simply coat BOTH sides and let dry to the touch BEFORE bonding ... 2 coats is the best, let the 1st coat dry before adding the 2nd coat ... guaranteed success.

Once both sides are dry you then press them together ... but get the 'line up' right because removing them after contact is difficult and requires chemical assistance. ... that's why its called a contact cement.

It is readily available in Canada but there are restrictions in the USA.

"Pliobond 20 cannot be sold to or used in certain states due to the EPA regulations regarding VOC content. Pliobond 25LV can be sold and used in all states".
https://www.handlaidtrack.com/assets...-datasheet.pdf

Good luck whatever you do ... its an awesome nice pistol.

[Edward Tinker]

Unsure why it would not be a real dutch luger... many never received unit plates

Vlim, send me a plate when you come across one

[DonVoigt]

Contact cement as suggested above.
Cheap and reversible.

If you were going to shoot it a lot, epoxy may be a better choice, but I would think it won't get much shooting.

Agree that originals would have been "soft" soldered.

[jeb111]

Couldn’t a good jeweler solder back on, it seems like that would fall under their skill set?

[lugerholsterrepair]

a good jeweler solder it back on? Why not a good plumber? From the looks of your pistol & plate it was never soldered on to begin with as Gerben mentions.

[Norme]

Actually the brass plates on Dutch Lugers were originally soldered on and I have no idea why yours wasn't. A jeweler could solder yours on for you but a better idea would be to have a gunsmith do it. Solders come in a range of melting points and a competent gunsmith would use a low temperature solder for your application.
Norm

[Vlim]

Hi Ed,

The Luger is Dutch, no doubt about it. The side plate also. It's just the combination of both on the same gun without being soldered on that is strange.

Joop van de Kant had 5 or 6 separate plates. They were auctioned on Hermann-Historica when he sold his collection.

[spangy]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

a good jeweler solder it back on? Why not a good plumber? From the looks of your pistol & plate it was never soldered on to begin with as Gerben mentions.

Thats exactly right Jerry ... It has never seen a lick of solder in its life.
So why the brass plate ??? Was it to deceive and get extra money in a hard sell ??? Were these some of the things running through Gudabeg's mind the second the plate fell off ?? He had already read that they should have been brazed on in Phoenix so why wasn't his ??.

My mentioning that IMO it was an original Dutch pistol was said to alleviate my fellow member Gudabeg's mind in case he was thinking that he had been taken by a complete 'fake' ... something that seems to happen a lot more recently.

I felt his pain and tried to ease it if I could Ed ... I would do the same for any member here.

As for soldering here are the temperatures we're talking about:


I would go the Pliobond 20 route as the only one who will know is you AND there is no heat involved with all the additional problems that that can cause. By the way no one solders an expensive firearm for free and indeed in Canada the jeweler/plumber would require a firearms license.

Re-glue it and be done with it knowing that YOU fixed it.

Good luck Gudabeg

[Fla.Mallard]

Several years ago I bought some pocket/belt clips for carrying concealed pistols. They attached with a piece of adhesive tape made by 3M. I attached them knowing full well they would not work for long especially since these were all steel pistols that were not lightweights.

Over a decade has passed and these clips are still attached showing no signs of loosening. Researching 3M adhesive tape may give you a good solution for solving your dilemma.

[Gudabeg]

Originally Posted by spangy

Thats exactly right Jerry ... It has never seen a lick of solder in its life.
So why the brass plate ??? Was it to deceive and get extra money in a hard sell ??? Were these some of the things running through Gudabeg's mind the second the plate fell off ?? He had already read that they should have been brazed on in Phoenix so why wasn't his ??.

My mentioning that IMO it was an original Dutch pistol was said to alleviate my fellow member Gudabeg's mind in case he was thinking that he had been taken by a complete 'fake' ... something that seems to happen a lot more recently.

I felt his pain and tried to ease it if I could Ed ... I would do the same for any member here.

As for soldering here are the temperatures were talking about:


I would go the Pliobond 20 route as the only one who will know is you AND there is no heat involved with all the additional problems that that can cause. By the way no one solders an expensive firearm for free and indeed in Canada the jeweler/plumber would require a firearms license.

Re-glue it and be done with it knowing that YOU fixed it.

Good luck Gudabeg

That sounds like a good idea! I think cement will be better than brazing simply due to the lower risk of harming the bluing or other parts of the gun. It would be nice to have it on the "right" way, but when 2 methods work equally well, one of them could damage the gun, that same one costs more, and no one can tell the difference without taking the part off ... better to use the safe option (of course I'll record it was done so future people know). No reason to risk harm for perfection when good will do just as well.

Looking at both parts, the finish on the gun appears to be less worn where the plate was, and there is some finish removed in that area. It doesn't have the large silver surface from having the unit plate removed (like the first link), but its finish isn't as uniform as the 2nd link (and looks more like it was peeled off or rubbed off, and there are darker patches on the brass plate and finish, but that could be grime).

The brass plate also lacks the silver, and looks like it was just epoxied. It might be fake, but someone else who had a Luger with a unit plate from the same unit saw my original post and didn't remark on that in his comment. (He said the odd marking indicated the unit, and I'd imagine if it was a fake he'd have mentioned it looked different from his unit plate). I'll send him a message and ask.

The wear pattern on the pistol also seems to sort of match where the plate was (at least on first glance). There is wear under where the unit plate would have been, but the lack of finish doesn't seem to correspond to a one handed grip. Maybe it was roughed up to make the epoxy easier to apply? But it is in a strange pattern if that was what was done, because if I were to do (and didn't care about marring the finish) then I'd make a much larger pad for the epoxy. If I did care about the finish I likely wouldn't have added the unit plate without at least noting the fact for others.

It also seems strange for it to collect enough wear in a collection to have a pattern that shows the unit plate did protect it a bit, but then have the unit plate come off after a few rounds (under 10 rounds of Norinco 9mm that was saved from the 90's, as a side note the Luger seemed to like it besides for 2 times it didn't feed the initial round quite right).

Is it possible the solder was re-flowed and removed? Or would the original solder have formed an alloy that can't be easily removed without leaving obvious damage on the gun?

https://simpsonltd.com/dwm-1906-dutch-d32026/
https://simpsonltd.com/dwm-luger-dutch-navy-rig-d32042/

Are there any known guns where the unit plate was epoxied? Or are all known examples soldered so it's likely the unit plate was "added on" by someone later down the line?

Is it true many guns didn't receive plates? Was that due to shortages, or did only officers get them, or some other reason? If that is the case, would it be a good idea to give the plate a "new life" (because I doubt it's original host exists, and if it did I'm unaware of any way to find its serial number) on this Luger and simply note that I did so and use a reversible method? (e.g. epoxy and then leave a note under the grip panels or in the case for the gun).

For my purpose (collecting a Dutch firearm for connection to family heritage, and to compliment my KNIL Carbine) the Luger itself is the important part. In a perfect world it would be great for that plate be original to the gun, but if it's not authentic to this particular Luger, it's also cool to have 2 pieces of history (have one gun and a plate from another).

It's also interesting to try to piece together the history of how the gun came to be in it's present state (whether through repair or other motivations). I think that's part of the adventure of collecting history, as well as being able to have that history in your hands rather than be a picture in a book.

Thanks for all the help and advice, it's really nice to have this sort of community to go to.

[G.T.]

Hi to all, well, in my travels thru life, I have been exposed to just enough knowledge to make any repair attempt a dangerous preposition?....... meaning, I've probably ruined more stuff than most people ever have even had?
Anyway, back to the solder job or lack of one! Two things I know are important to any solder job of even marginal quality, and that is surface prep, and cleaned / fluxed, properly? This gun shows evidence of never seeing either? Much less extreme heat. If'n'it were mine... I'd leave the plate off, and clean up the residue a little and call it a success! BTW, I have a couple of the correct mags for that gun? I'd sell or trade?.... Best to all, til....lat'r....GT