1917 LP 08 Artillery- Red 9 grips

DonVoigt · 03-11-2016, 10:32 AM

I recently traded on of my Japanese rifles for this nice 1917 LP 08.

This example shows the variety with adjustable or fine tune rear
sight and fixed front sight, along with the "9" burned into the grips and filled with matte red paint.

Pistol is matching except for the magazine and came with a great 1916 dated holster, cleaning rod, tool , and numbered but mismatched stock. Straps missing to the rig, so I'll have to rectify that.

The reason for the Red 9 on the grips is a bit of a mystery or puzzle; as all LP 08s were in 9mm - why the need for the highly visible 9 in the grip!

In a few days I will be able to do a comparison with a similar "black 9" gripped LP 08- as I "won" one in the recent RIA auction.

wlyon · 03-11-2016, 10:35 AM

Don
Very nice!!! Bill

George Anderson · 03-11-2016, 10:43 AM

Don, the "9" that is found on some 1917 grips is believed to be due to bureaucratic confusion with a touch of zeal. At the same time the 9mm C96 was being delivered to the front it was directed that every infantry company be issued ten LP08s. Due to the confusion caused by the new calibre C96, a follow-up order went out instructing units to mark the grips of the new 9mm pistols.

Sergio Natali · 03-11-2016, 11:04 AM

George

Thanks quite interesting I didn't know it, I've learnt something new.

Best.

DavidJayUden · 03-11-2016, 11:05 AM

Nice gun! That must have been some Japanese rifle...
dju

DonVoigt · 03-11-2016, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Nice gun! That must have been some Japanese rifle...
dju

Yes, one of around 20 known as "for education" rifles made in Jinsen when they were gearing up to produce the T 38. This one is like new and serial number 7. They were used for training workers while establishing the new production line in Jinsen(Inchon).

Don M · 03-11-2016, 12:52 PM

Don, the 9s appear to be field-applied which is consistent with George's comments.

DonVoigt · 03-11-2016, 02:26 PM

Thanks George and Don,
I included the close up of the red 9 to show the aged, dirty, flat red paint-which is likely original.
I have seen a number of Mauser Red 9s that have been re-painted with shiny red enamel, and show no age.

tenbears · 03-13-2016, 04:52 PM

Their were 06 Lugers in 30 cal so this may have added to the bureaucratic confusion even though they were commercial Lugers.

DonVoigt · 03-13-2016, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenbears

Their were 06 Lugers in 30 cal so this may have added to the bureaucratic confusion even though they were commercial Lugers.

True; but by 1917 there here hundreds of thousands of 9mm lugers in the hands of the military, they were not marked with a "9". So I don't think that situation had anything to do with the "9"s on the artilleries. JMHO.

DavidJayUden · 04-15-2016, 09:35 AM

Here is an interesting variant in the font of the "red nine".

https://www.gunsamerica.com//9725544...LUGER.htm?wl=1

dju

ithacaartist · 04-15-2016, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Here is an interesting variant in the font of the "red nine".

https://www.gunsamerica.com//9725544...LUGER.htm?wl=1

dju

A link to this listing appeared today, part of the G.A. "wish list" to which I'm subscribed. This one has just about the weirdest-shaped "9" I've seen pics of so far. The variations in shapes and sizes of this mark make it clear that the process was carried out with field-made branding irons. They're all similar, of course, but it would seem that in order to encounter two that are exactly alike, one would have to find two pistols marked by the same iron made by the unit that marked them!

George Anderson · 04-15-2016, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

A link to this listing appeared today, part of the G.A. "wish list" to which I'm subscribed. This one has just about the weirdest-shaped "9" I've seen pics of so far. The variations in shapes and sizes of this mark make it clear that the process was carried out with field-made branding irons. They're all similar, of course, but it would seem that in order to encounter two that are exactly alike, one would have to find two pistols marked by the same iron made by the unit that marked them!

I have an "orphan" pair of grips exactly like those on the auction pistol and have seen a pistol in France with exactly the same odd missing top 9s.

Lugerdoc · 04-15-2016, 10:14 AM

Don, I agree that the field applied "Red 9s" were applied in error to LPO8s, This was done in confusion with the order to apply them to the first 60K 9mm brooms that were shipped to the troops with standard unmarked C96 grips in 1916. TH

DonVoigt · 04-15-2016, 05:41 PM

I was interested in this piece, until I called and found the grips were not numbered to the pistol.

Interesting nines for sure.

MikeP · 04-16-2016, 04:27 PM

I have always agreed with the over enthusiastic beureucratic theory.

On fine day or days some well meaning ordnance guy got carried away with his enthusiasm.

03-11-2016, 10:32 AM	#1
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	1917 LP 08 Artillery- Red 9 grips I recently traded on of my Japanese rifles for this nice 1917 LP 08. This example shows the variety with adjustable or fine tune rear sight and fixed front sight, along with the "9" burned into the grips and filled with matte red paint. Pistol is matching except for the magazine and came with a great 1916 dated holster, cleaning rod, tool , and numbered but mismatched stock. Straps missing to the rig, so I'll have to rectify that. The reason for the Red 9 on the grips is a bit of a mystery or puzzle; as all LP 08s were in 9mm - why the need for the highly visible 9 in the grip! In a few days I will be able to do a comparison with a similar "black 9" gripped LP 08- as I "won" one in the recent RIA auction. Attached Thumbnails __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

03-11-2016, 10:35 AM	#2
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,635 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,555 Times in 954 Posts	Don Very nice!!! Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

03-11-2016, 11:04 AM	#4
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	George Thanks quite interesting I didn't know it, I've learnt something new. Best. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

03-11-2016, 12:52 PM	#7
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Don, the 9s appear to be field-applied which is consistent with George's comments. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

03-11-2016, 02:26 PM	#8
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Thanks George and Don, I included the close up of the red 9 to show the aged, dirty, flat red paint-which is likely original. I have seen a number of Mauser Red 9s that have been re-painted with shiny red enamel, and show no age. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

03-11-2016, 10:43 AM	#3
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	Don, the "9" that is found on some 1917 grips is believed to be due to bureaucratic confusion with a touch of zeal. At the same time the 9mm C96 was being delivered to the front it was directed that every infantry company be issued ten LP08s. Due to the confusion caused by the new calibre C96, a follow-up order went out instructing units to mark the grips of the new 9mm pistols.

03-11-2016, 11:05 AM	#5
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Nice gun! That must have been some Japanese rifle... dju

03-13-2016, 04:52 PM	#9
tenbears User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 370 Thanks: 3 Thanked 26 Times in 15 Posts	Their were 06 Lugers in 30 cal so this may have added to the bureaucratic confusion even though they were commercial Lugers.

04-15-2016, 09:35 AM	#11
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Here is an interesting variant in the font of the "red nine". https://www.gunsamerica.com//9725544...LUGER.htm?wl=1 dju

04-15-2016, 10:14 AM	#14
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Don, I agree that the field applied "Red 9s" were applied in error to LPO8s, This was done in confusion with the order to apply them to the first 60K 9mm brooms that were shipped to the troops with standard unmarked C96 grips in 1916. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

04-15-2016, 05:41 PM	#15
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	I was interested in this piece, until I called and found the grips were not numbered to the pistol. Interesting nines for sure. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

04-16-2016, 04:27 PM	#16
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	I have always agreed with the over enthusiastic beureucratic theory. On fine day or days some well meaning ordnance guy got carried away with his enthusiasm.