Interesting 1908-14 Navy

Big Norm · 03-01-2007, 03:01 PM

This is an interesting 1908/Model 1914 Navy.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=66772359

I say that its interesting because this navy Luger has a short frame, no chamber date and navy military markings. All the Model 1914's had short frames. But I am under the impression that ALL navy military 1908's had long frames. The 1908 commercials could go either way. But this is not a commercial navy because of the navy proof marks on the left side of the receiver. Comments anyone?
Big Norm

Dwight Gruber · 03-01-2007, 03:31 PM

Boyoboy, there's lots here to ponder.

Take a close look at the profile characteristics of the rear sight and comment. Note that there is no picture which included the rear toggle pin.

If I was a suspicious sort, I might find that the only picture which is terminally out-of-focus being the receiver proofs cause for concern.

--Dwight

drbuster · 03-01-2007, 03:54 PM

Gadzooks guys! Don't you all recognize the forward canted rear sight? This is a Kontos rework "special" the likes of which are turning up on various auction sites recently. Beware, as even the folks in northern Minnesota have recognized the wrong canted rear sight and have "corrected" this flaw on more recent fraudulent issue Navies.

Big Norm · 03-01-2007, 10:54 PM

I have a pictorial comparision of the repro navy toogle vs the original navy toggle on my desktop, but I can't figure out how to put in a forum thread. Ron Wood did a fine pictorial description (I did a forum search on Navy Toogle and Ron Wood), but no pictures came out. Just those little question mark thingys.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 03-01-2007, 11:12 PM

According to my desk top picture, the toggle knob looks fine, but the serrations on the rabbit ears look as short as Ron Woods description of a repro.
Big Norm

tracyp · 03-02-2007, 01:00 AM

Look at the angle of the back of the sight. It looks like it slopes forward, not back. The second photo is a comparison Ron Wood made of another repro and my 1906 Navy sight. Look where Ron pointed out the contour. Both the original and repro angle slope back.

Big Norm · 03-02-2007, 01:36 AM

Tracyp,
How did you ever post those pictures that Ron Wood posted a few years ago? I saved those pictures and have been trying to post them on this thread for a couple of hours. I just finally gave up and e-mailed Tinker to post them for me. Maybe its because I saved it as a .jpg to my desk top?

I feel sorry for the guy who passed the reserve price @$3500. I hope that he can cancel his bid. I hope that he is on this forum and reading whats being said. I know that, with me, this gun just did not add up.
Big Norm

tracyp · 03-02-2007, 01:47 AM

Norm,

I found the previous topic that had the picture in it, copied it to my local PC, uploaded it to the forum, then posted the link into the message. The format of the file (jpg, bmp, etc.) doesn't matter.

Look who the bidder is, he's bought all kinds of bogus stuff for big bucks.

Tracy

Big Norm · 03-02-2007, 02:33 AM

Tracy,
I function on my Mac but I am not a whizbang. So I have a copy of the pictures that you posted sitting on my desk top. Everytime I tried to drag it to my forum post, I couldn't do it. Its driving me nuts. I am going to try again at the bottom of this post just for the heck of it.
Big Norm
navy_sight_comp_dup.jpg

See, it didn't work. Norm

Edward Tinker · 03-02-2007, 02:38 AM

you can drag a picture in windows, mac, etc., only on YOUR machine. All other desktops / servers you ahve to upload the info. Thus the upload link upper right and the one if you choose ADD REPLY.....

Ed

tracyp · 03-02-2007, 02:45 AM

Norm,

I think trying to drag it to the forum is the problem. First you need to upload it to the LugerForum server. Copy the address after it's completed. See upload photos. Then click on "Add Reply" in the forum. Above "Your Reply" you will see "vB Code". To the right, click on IMG. A popup will then be displayed to insert the http address. Insert http address of where you uploaded the photo to the LugerForum.

Like everything else, it's easy after you've done it.

Tracy

Big Norm · 03-02-2007, 03:21 AM

[url]http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/navy_sight_comp_dup_copy1.jpg[/url

Ok, I got something that I can click on to get my picture, but I want the picture to show. So what did I do wrong?
Big Norm

Ok, I got a question thingy. I don't believe that thats progress. Heck, I my going to bed and I'll try again tomorrow.
Big Norm Abnormal

tracyp · 03-02-2007, 10:30 AM

Norm,

Your almost there. Replace both url with IMG, and your missing the bracket at the end. This is what you get

Pete Ebbink · 03-02-2007, 11:20 AM

"Fatboy11" has been busy buying on G-B.

Here is an example of a 9 mm carbine M1902 :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10891

Michael Zeleny · 03-02-2007, 01:45 PM

Gunbroker actively investigates and curtails fraud on their auctions. I just got them to end a Swiss Luger auction that had its description copied from a sale listing by CMR International Classic Firearms. I urge my fellow Lugerforum members to do likewise in similar cases. The reputation of our community rests and reflects on each and every one of us.

Pete Ebbink · 03-02-2007, 02:18 PM

Excellent work, Michael...!!!

I wondered about this G-B's seller's NR (rating) and the fact that he does not appear to reply to requests for larger jpeg files before I would place a bid.

CMR asking $ 2450 USD and the guy on G-B letting it go for $ 1500 now makes sense as well.

I noticed he had a buyer on G-B...

http://www.cmrfirearms.com/shop/prod...roducts_id=149

Michael Zeleny · 03-02-2007, 02:33 PM

Thank you for your kind words, Pete. Thanks to contributors of your caliber, this is by far the best specialty gun forum around. I only wish that its like could be created for my hobbyhorse, Swiss handguns. (Nudge Nudge)

I have reported the auction at issue in this thread to the Gunbroker fraud team, referring them to this thread. Stay tuned for further updates.

Michael Zeleny · 03-02-2007, 09:54 PM

On 3/2/2007 at 9:30:53 PM Eastern Time, GBSupport1012 wrote to me:
We have confronted the seller about it. Thanks for the heads up.

Michael Zeleny · 03-02-2007, 09:54 PM

On 3/2/2007 at 9:30:53 PM Eastern Time, GBSupport1012 wrote to me:
We have confronted the seller about it. Thanks for the heads up.

LugerVern · 03-02-2007, 11:04 PM

You guys are much better at this than I am, so correct me if I am wrong:
The sear is unrelieved so production should be pre 1915/16 but the rear frame well looks reinforced post 1916 so the upper and lower receivers donÃ¢??t match.
Does the machining of the rear frame well look like DWM to you guys? More like Mauser to me?
Look at the close up of the barrel ringÃ¢??thatÃ¢??s the widest one I have ever seen. (barrel replacement?)
The barrel coloring is different than the receiver; the coloring of the rust bluing is too black for an Imperial gun. The suffix seems too low on the receiverÃ¢??but I could be wrong.

I would love to buy a 1914 Navy someday but it scares me to death, I am so paranoid I doubt I would ever bid on one based on pictures alone!

Vern

03-01-2007, 03:01 PM	#1
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Interesting 1908-14 Navy This is an interesting 1908/Model 1914 Navy. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=66772359 I say that its interesting because this navy Luger has a short frame, no chamber date and navy military markings. All the Model 1914's had short frames. But I am under the impression that ALL navy military 1908's had long frames. The 1908 commercials could go either way. But this is not a commercial navy because of the navy proof marks on the left side of the receiver. Comments anyone? Big Norm

03-02-2007, 02:38 AM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	you can drag a picture in windows, mac, etc., only on YOUR machine. All other desktops / servers you ahve to upload the info. Thus the upload link upper right and the one if you choose ADD REPLY..... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-02-2007, 01:45 PM	#15
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 138 Times in 76 Posts	Gunbroker actively investigates and curtails fraud on their auctions. I just got them to end a Swiss Luger auction that had its description copied from a sale listing by CMR International Classic Firearms. I urge my fellow Lugerforum members to do likewise in similar cases. The reputation of our community rests and reflects on each and every one of us. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

03-02-2007, 02:33 PM	#17
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 138 Times in 76 Posts	Thank you for your kind words, Pete. Thanks to contributors of your caliber, this is by far the best specialty gun forum around. I only wish that its like could be created for my hobbyhorse, Swiss handguns. (Nudge Nudge) I have reported the auction at issue in this thread to the Gunbroker fraud team, referring them to this thread. Stay tuned for further updates. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

03-02-2007, 09:54 PM	#18
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 138 Times in 76 Posts	update On 3/2/2007 at 9:30:53 PM Eastern Time, GBSupport1012 wrote to me: We have confronted the seller about it. Thanks for the heads up. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

03-01-2007, 03:31 PM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Boyoboy, there's lots here to ponder. Take a close look at the profile characteristics of the rear sight and comment. Note that there is no picture which included the rear toggle pin. If I was a suspicious sort, I might find that the only picture which is terminally out-of-focus being the receiver proofs cause for concern. --Dwight

03-01-2007, 03:54 PM	#3
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Gadzooks guys! Don't you all recognize the forward canted rear sight? This is a Kontos rework "special" the likes of which are turning up on various auction sites recently. Beware, as even the folks in northern Minnesota have recognized the wrong canted rear sight and have "corrected" this flaw on more recent fraudulent issue Navies.

03-01-2007, 10:54 PM	#4
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I have a pictorial comparision of the repro navy toogle vs the original navy toggle on my desktop, but I can't figure out how to put in a forum thread. Ron Wood did a fine pictorial description (I did a forum search on Navy Toogle and Ron Wood), but no pictures came out. Just those little question mark thingys. Big Norm

03-01-2007, 11:12 PM	#5
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	According to my desk top picture, the toggle knob looks fine, but the serrations on the rabbit ears look as short as Ron Woods description of a repro. Big Norm

03-02-2007, 01:00 AM	#6
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Look at the angle of the back of the sight. It looks like it slopes forward, not back. The second photo is a comparison Ron Wood made of another repro and my 1906 Navy sight. Look where Ron pointed out the contour. Both the original and repro angle slope back.

03-02-2007, 01:36 AM	#7
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tracyp, How did you ever post those pictures that Ron Wood posted a few years ago? I saved those pictures and have been trying to post them on this thread for a couple of hours. I just finally gave up and e-mailed Tinker to post them for me. Maybe its because I saved it as a .jpg to my desk top? I feel sorry for the guy who passed the reserve price @$3500. I hope that he can cancel his bid. I hope that he is on this forum and reading whats being said. I know that, with me, this gun just did not add up. Big Norm

03-02-2007, 01:47 AM	#8
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Norm, I found the previous topic that had the picture in it, copied it to my local PC, uploaded it to the forum, then posted the link into the message. The format of the file (jpg, bmp, etc.) doesn't matter. Look who the bidder is, he's bought all kinds of bogus stuff for big bucks. Tracy

03-02-2007, 02:33 AM	#9
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tracy, I function on my Mac but I am not a whizbang. So I have a copy of the pictures that you posted sitting on my desk top. Everytime I tried to drag it to my forum post, I couldn't do it. Its driving me nuts. I am going to try again at the bottom of this post just for the heck of it. Big Norm navy_sight_comp_dup.jpg See, it didn't work. Norm

03-02-2007, 02:45 AM	#11
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Norm, I think trying to drag it to the forum is the problem. First you need to upload it to the LugerForum server. Copy the address after it's completed. See upload photos. Then click on "Add Reply" in the forum. Above "Your Reply" you will see "vB Code". To the right, click on IMG. A popup will then be displayed to insert the http address. Insert http address of where you uploaded the photo to the LugerForum. Like everything else, it's easy after you've done it. Tracy

03-02-2007, 03:21 AM	#12
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	[url]http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/navy_sight_comp_dup_copy1.jpg[/url Ok, I got something that I can click on to get my picture, but I want the picture to show. So what did I do wrong? Big Norm Ok, I got a question thingy. I don't believe that thats progress. Heck, I my going to bed and I'll try again tomorrow. Big Norm Abnormal

03-02-2007, 10:30 AM	#13
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Norm, Your almost there. Replace both url with IMG, and your missing the bracket at the end. This is what you get

03-02-2007, 11:20 AM	#14
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	"Fatboy11" has been busy buying on G-B. Here is an example of a 9 mm carbine M1902 : http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10891

03-02-2007, 02:18 PM	#16
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Excellent work, Michael...!!! I wondered about this G-B's seller's NR (rating) and the fact that he does not appear to reply to requests for larger jpeg files before I would place a bid. CMR asking $ 2450 USD and the guy on G-B letting it go for $ 1500 now makes sense as well. I noticed he had a buyer on G-B... http://www.cmrfirearms.com/shop/prod...roducts_id=149

03-02-2007, 11:04 PM	#20
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	You guys are much better at this than I am, so correct me if I am wrong: The sear is unrelieved so production should be pre 1915/16 but the rear frame well looks reinforced post 1916 so the upper and lower receivers donÃ¢??t match. Does the machining of the rear frame well look like DWM to you guys? More like Mauser to me? Look at the close up of the barrel ringÃ¢??thatÃ¢??s the widest one I have ever seen. (barrel replacement?) The barrel coloring is different than the receiver; the coloring of the rust bluing is too black for an Imperial gun. The suffix seems too low on the receiverÃ¢??but I could be wrong. I would love to buy a 1914 Navy someday but it scares me to death, I am so paranoid I doubt I would ever bid on one based on pictures alone! Vern