new member first post tell me about my luger please

[angel]

hi there! this is my first post. i am glad you are all here to answer questions and share your expertise.
here is a picture of my luger. sorry for the bad pictures. it is barrel dated 1936, and s/42 on toggle. all other parts have matching numbers except the magazine. underneath the barrel is the serial number 1490 and in small numbers an 8 then smaller number 1, then 80 in the same size as the first 8. on the top side it has a small eagle with a 63 under it and on the other side a larger eagle. on the frame on the right side it has proof mark #45. Mauser military proof noted on "G" date and later dated Lugers. Right proof appears on barrel. appears fired little but show some holster wear. i dont know much else. the magazine is blued with aluminum bottom as pictured with serial number 2445.
my questions are 1) is there a registry of serial numbers to match magazines? someone have pistol 2445 and needs my mag for instance.
2) what do the symbols on the magazine mean? is this magazine "correct" other than the serial number for the time period os my pistol?
3) i know valus is almost impossible to acertain without personal inspection, but the bluing is original, non import marked, matching numbers is it worth at least $700?
thank you very much.
angel

[angel]

sorry the image did not load. it is located at the server http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfuploa...uger_copy1.jpg

[John Sabato]

Angel,

welcome to the Lugerforum...

There is something wrong with your image... I can't get it to come up. Please upload it again and copy and paste the URL into your next posting... If you can't make it post, I can. As long as you have the URL correct. One way to check is to paste the URL into a new browser window and press return... your photo should appear in that browser. If it doesn't, then there is something wrong with the URL you have provided. Probably a misspelling or something like that. If you cut and paste the URL from the upload page, after you have successfully uploaded a photo you should have no problem.

Now in answer to some of your questions.

1936 is the year of manufacture and it was made by Mauser.

Someone else will have to comment on whether or not the magazine you have is the correct type for your pistol...

If the number under the barrel is 1490, then the serial number on the left side of the upper receiver (near the chamber) and the serial number on the front of the grip frame should all be 1490. If it is missing from any of those locations or diferent from 1490 then there is a good chance that it is not all matching.

There should also be a small alphabetic character under the serial number on the grip frame... this letter is part of the serial number. The letter changed every time they reached the top limit (either 9999 or 10000 in some cases) and then started back at 0001.

Don Hallock maintains a magazine registry and charges for a subscription to his list. He is a member of this forum and he has been doing this for years. The chances of matching up a magazine with a particular and correct gun are slim, but not impossible.

If the gun truely has most of it's original finish, and hasn't been reblued or touched up, and is really matching numbers then $700 is probably not too far out of line on a value. But if it isn't really matching numbers, or has been reblued, or touched up, then the value drops dramatically...

[angel]

here is the right one i hope. thank you for the information. i do appreciate it.

[John Sabato]

Your Luger's serial number is 1490 "o" and it appears to be all matching from what I can see. You should check the firing pin to see if it has the number 90 stamped on it.

In answer to your questions about the marks stamped on the magazine:

2445 "v" is the serial number of the pistol that this magazine was issued with.

The "+" sign indicates that it is the second or spare magazine from that pistol.

The Eagle/63 is the acceptance stamp from the government for the magazine.

Your finish does "look" original in the photos, but it is hard to tell for sure in a photo. But I will give your Luger the benefit of the doubt.

Now that I have seen it, I would say $700 is an acceptable value for your gun... and it might be worth a hundred or two more to someone who really wanted to buy it. I have seen lesser pistols sell for as much as $1200.

Congrats on a fine Luger.

[Herb]

Angel, Don Hallock who maintains the magazine data base sells his lists for $12 each and he publishes them every few months or when he has enough new data to put one out. I think the next one is #19 and should be coming out soon. You can purchase all of the back lists for about $45 unless the price has gone up. You can contact him at Don R. Hallock P.O.Box 370 Hobart WA 98025 or by phone at
425-432-6664 or by email at drh@oz.net All the lists together will give you around 4,000+ numbers and types to research and the method used is to trade with the person that has the magazine you want a like type and condition mag or possibly some other method aranged with them. Don keeps the info in his files, it is not published so your and their personal info is not shown.

[angel]

thank you, you guys are great!
i will contact don and see what he has available. thank you all!
angel

[RockinWR]

A,
* The large eagle/63 on the magazine base leads me to believe this mag was originally issued with a 42 Code, 1939 chamber dated Mauser P.08.
* When you field strip this pistol to check the firing pin number, the trigger on the L/Side and the holdopen at the inside top of the mag well should also bear the last 2 digits (90) of the S/Number. The rear toggle pin linking the back of the receiver to the rear toggle link should also be number matched on the left side with the last 2 digits.
* Nice looking example.
* Out of curiosity, does a numeral or numerals appear on the inside of the side plate?
Respectfully,
Bob

[Herb]

Tac, since you mentioned it that was something that caught my attention but went in one eye and out the other at the time. Without digging into the references I was under the impression that the smallest land diameter measurement was 8,82 going up to 8,85 isn't that corrrect?

[angel]

Just followed the excellant instructions on this site for disassembly.
Yes, the side plate has a number "4" on it. does it mean anything?
yes, the firing pin and the hold open have the last 2 digits correct as does the toggle pin. every part and number match.
the backstap and front of the frame are turning a little brown as you can see from the photo. other than that it seems to have a little holster where but looks like it was fired very little.
thank you again for your help.

[John Sabato]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>Dear Mr Herb - ... I am not an expert, just a former shooter.

tac</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Former shooter! what a sad state of affairs!

Our heartfelt sympathies dear comrade in arms! The offer for support in an emmigration effort to the U S of A still stands!

[John Sabato]

Two other things I wanted to mention... is the "4" on the inside of the sideplate the only mark there?

and...

WOW! after studying the photos a little longer, my eyes were drawn to the superb fit of the grips to the gun... what remarkable craftsmanship.

Be extremely careful when you remove the left grip for maintenance, because the close tolerance between the grip and the safety make it a prime candidate for the "safety chip" if not done correctly.

Once again. Congrats on such a nice Luger.

[angel]

thank you again!
yes the 4 is the only number marking inside the plate. what does it mean?

even though this luger does not have a personal story to it,(other than i was finally able to afford one) i consider it a symbol of those whose who sacrificed so much so good can triumph over evil. so it will always be treasured in my house.

[RockinWR]

Angel,
* Thank you for your Inside sideplate number (ISPN) report of the single digit numeral "4". If it is a "14" you'll see the significance after this post.
* "What does it mean?" you ask <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . Truthfully, I don't believe a documented answer is known yet. <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> To allay any concern, IMHO this numeral report neither confirms nor denies any further conclusion about this pistol's history.
* Guess I owe a 'splaining:
- Typically, a single alpha or numeric digit is thought to be a worker's stamp signifying the satisfactory completion of a "unit of work" task. In this case, it may be the assembly of the sideplate detail components or the fitting of the sideplate assembly to the rest of the pistol. I think this is the case for your 1490o example.
- However, another explaination has been explored. A study was done about 10 years ago on ISPN's in AutoMag by a gentleman we'll call Dr. Bob. As a Luger's sideplate is pivotable to both function & "smooth" trigger pull, the question was raised on whether the ISPN was related to the exact sideplate fitted and was related to the first two digits of the pistol's Serial Number.
- Dr. Bob's tenative conclusion was published in the 6/94 issue wherein he stated (partially): "The transitional range between no ISPN (or just a non-specific single digit number in the horizontal position or a letter) and first S/N digit(s) is S/42-1936,1937 m, n, o, p, q, a rather large, about 40,000 number block (range). 11 pistols fell within this range: 6 have ISPN's , 5 do not, no particular pattern. After the "q" block, ISPN's are quite consistently present with a very few exceptions". As your "o" block is late into 1936 production & fell into this range, my curiosity was peaked.
- Of twenty-nine (29) S/42-1936 examples I have heard of in the "o" block(yours=30), 5 have reported ISP numeral(s)/letter(yours makes 6). Two have numerals which match the first digits of the S/N. The other 3(yours=4th) do not. The remaining 24 are either blank or have no report on this facet of study. BTW: a 1936 S/N 76xx "o" is reported with a single numeral "4" inside its sideplate.
* So it again appears the S/N to ISPN number relationship did start later than your "o" block...generally accepted to be in the 1937 chamber dated pistols & later. Every original example reported helps to delineate the exact or transition point range of a P.08 change.
* Hope this helps de-mystify my query.

Herb:
* Barrel diameter marking is 8,85 +0.01/-0.03mm(8,82-8,86mm). J. Walter opines this was likely relaxed as 8,81 & 8,87mm markings are recorded.
Respectfully,
Bob

PS: Next time you field strip this example, would you be so kind as to report whether the inside of the frame is polished(all-in-the-white), thinly blued(weak solution washed), or fully blued(like the outside). Another piece of minutia being tracked. And the quest continues.
Thanks !

[angel]

Wow Bob!
I did not know so much was involved in tracking the changes. this is really a science. have you contacted by email the sellers on the auction sites for this info? there must be 20 or 30 lugers posted up there every week. if you could get their input it would greatly add to your research.

i will photograph the luger in detail and field strip when i get home from work. there are some other numbers/marking i did not mention on the inside. i did not think they were important.

if 8,82 is the minimum then is mine a problem at 8,80?

thanks again.
angel

[Dwight Gruber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by angel:
<strong>if 8,82 is the minimum then is mine a problem at 8,80?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">If it was a problem it would have failed inspection.

--Dwight

[John Sabato]

It is exactly 0.01mm out of spec for 1913 as shown in this extract from the 1913 blueprints, but I suspect that it was perfectly acceptable for the WW2 era although I don't have prints that can confirm that.

<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/boredimensions1913.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/boredimensions1913.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

[angel]

Gentlemen
i offer my sincerest apologies. the barrel is marked 8,82 as you can see from the photo. i was so excited to post my information i wrote it wrong. i did however learn much about the tolerences and got to see the excelent picture form JS.
Here are some more photos of my luger. you can see the number 4 stamped in the sideplate. also you can see that the inside of the frame is mostly in the white except on the inside of the backstrap where it is just dark. on the underside of the slide there is an "R" on the lug visible in the photo. there are also some numbers on the underside of the toggle, i cant make out the first one but the next two look like a 0 and 3 reading from right to left.
thanks again for all the input. i have learned much.

[Ron Wood]

Man, that's a nice Luger! And it takes a lot for me to admit that since it was made after 1918.

[John Sabato]

Really excellent photography Angel! Thanks for sharing those pics with the forum.

Based on RockinWR's report, I was wondering if the early ISPN that are single digits might have something to do with the "fit" to the particular gun it was part of? huh? I guess what I am trying to say is that the single digit might have something to do with the relationship of where the pivot points are located... and have a bearing on the trigger pull being in spec?

Does that make sense to anyone? or do I need to try and 'Splain that again? I don't seem to be very eloquent tonight. Guess I need to spend more time reading Wes Terrell's posts...