SS luger on gunbroker - Page 2

c3006 · 10-01-2005, 04:12 PM

I cant find this pistol relisted on GB, do you recon this means he sold it to one of the bidders off the auction site? Im still a little spooked as far as he has no feedback on the site. clint

Herb · 10-01-2005, 06:34 PM

Clint, it's possible he contacted the higest bidder and made a deal with him at a reduced price, or he might be letting it cool awhile before listing it again.

drbuster · 10-02-2005, 12:05 AM

Herb, if you are still following this thread, I did speak personally to Mike Krause today. He said he would be happy to examine your dagger if you can weather HWY 50 in November. No one knows what the weather will be like, it may be 70 degrees and clear! Or maybe not.

Herb · 10-02-2005, 10:11 AM

That is a possibility, the wife wants to go to KA to visit with the kids and grandkids for Thanksgiving. One of them can drive up to Reno and get her on Thurs and then I can go to Sac on Sunday, as much as I even hate to set foot in that state after living there for 27 years. Four years ago she had the car parked in front of her oldest daughters house and it got broken into, gota love that place!

drbuster · 10-02-2005, 11:22 AM

They say in California, it's the cheese! I say it's the weather. It certainly is NOT the people!

policeluger · 10-02-2005, 11:36 AM

com'on doc, we're both people here! ain't we OK? and cars are never broken into any other state???.....I think its our poor political climate, but there is still a few good ones here, even Pete

blkhand · 10-03-2005, 06:09 PM

Hi, everyone! New here, but was one of the highest bidders on the luger. Ken, I spoke with on the phone for a good three hours, and he is a very smart, intellentent, and seems to be very honest gentlemen! I/we agreed to a deal, and I just backed out. I only backed out because for that kind of money, and not sure it's 100% can be very scary! BUT, I also speak german, and deal on a German Military Forum. Seems German's know alot more right off the bat about Thrid Reich items. You really don't get a MAYBE, you'll get a Yes/No right off the bat with a good explaination why. Here is what he said, at the end of what he was saying about fake lugers.

"The photo shows an eagle stamp left of the skull. It is the way that the eagle was marked AFTER 1945 by german authorities. This gun is 100% safe to be a fake with a crude story "

policeluger · 10-03-2005, 06:24 PM

Well, do I need to eat a little crow here?, well if so I will.

Herb · 10-03-2005, 06:47 PM

Now I'm getting confused, again!
"The photo shows an eagle stamp left of the skull. It is the way that the eagle was marked AFTER 1945 by german authorities. This gun is 100% safe to be a fake with a crude story "
I just looked at my 1937 S/42 and it has the identical markings, less the SS and skull, that this one shows. I don't think it was made after 1945 but I might be wrong.

Edward Tinker · 10-03-2005, 06:47 PM

I'd say the seller sounds like a heck of a man though! Sounds like he is good to go...

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 10-03-2005, 08:33 PM

Blkhand,

Welcome to the Luger Forum, we're very glad that you came and weighed in on this topic.

I believe you made a prudent decision about this Luger.

Those of us who have a copy of Sam Costanzo's "World of Lugers--Proof Marks" reference book at hand, have a resource with which to dispute the conclusion of your German correspondent. The eagle referenced on the gun is the standard Mauser test proof stamp used on Lugers 1936-1939.

--Dwight

blkhand · 10-04-2005, 08:19 AM

Hi, Here's what he said, i just copyed and pasted for you guys.....

Hi there!

IÃ?Â´ve seen some of these advertisement before, and they all have one thing in common:
They are trying to sell a maybe valuable gun for a horrifying amount of money.
Unfortunately, especially the american market has a certain....affinity to items like these.
Stamping a gun (no matter wich) with a skull -type sign, a rune or some other mere fantasy sign seems to be a kind of permit for printing smebodyÃ?Â´s own dollar bills.
Some of the falsifications are so old, that they are seen to be proven originals just for the long time they are on the market.
The absolutely best piece of literature concerning the P08 , written by Joachim GÃ?Â¶rtz takes care of some phenomenons wich happen to show up from time to time and cause itchy fingers at some collectors.
As the book is written in german ,it might not yet be translated- and actually German is a quite difficult language.

So let me just list up some of the most common fakes wich are mentioned.

- The "black widow" -tale. All parts on the P08 after Ã?Â´37 were black, some sellers created a bullxxxx story that this was just for the SS said it had to be that way.

-"Danzig test Lugers" - there were no such tests in Danzig...fairy tale, either

-"Eastern Airforce Luger" : Price -pushing tale concerning the late (41/42) P08 models. They may be expensive anyway, the story is rubbish.

-"Totenkopf Lugers" There were several stamped P08 wich were manufactured during WW1. But there is absolutely no proof that even they are originals. Every P08 produced during the NS era and stamped with a skull or SS runes is most likely to be a fake anyway. The discussions, wether the skull guns are originals or not, have some kind of religious character. Owners (and sellers) on thre one hand, sceptics on the other. Divided through the holy $dollar$ or Ã¢?Â¬uro.
For example: A real fine matching numbers P08 S/42 1940 sells for about 1000 to 1300Ã¢?Â¬ here in Germany. Maximum. Place a deadhead or a rune on it and double or triple the value.
Making money is a very popular hobby. Here and elsewhrere.
The malicious thing about it is, that -once you hold an excellent P08 in your hands- you (and me and almost everybody else ) will feel the..fascination?
The "must have" feeling. Know what I mean? Guess yes !
My recommendment: Take the money and buy an excellent P08 , matching numbers, spare magazine , leather holster and accessories. They are xxxxxxx expensive either, and the value will remain stable or rise. A skull on the gun would be a "no buy" criteria for me and for lots of other collectors.
If you have time and money enough, come to Germany and visit auctions. These are the places where the real good stuff is sold. I can provide you the necessary info & adresses, if youÃ?Â´re interested.
A lot of collectors die in these years wich started buying Lugers when we both probably still were liquid. Old men with a lot of money, time and knowledge. These collections will be sold in the next few years. German laws make it almost impossible for the children to keep the guns without special permits. Sad but true. But the guns IÃ?Â´m talking about right now are the harvard material. I wouldnÃ?Â´t go for less...itÃ?Â´s expensive enough anyway.

Best regards!

P.S.: Just mentioned the photo below is not a banner...The photo shows an eagle stamp left of the skull. It is the way that the eagle was marked AFTER 1945 by german authorities. This gun is 100% safe to be a fake with a crude story

__________________
Suche Erkennungsmarken aller Art,von Boden- bis Dachbodenfund, auch Abbildungen von definitiven FÃ?Â¤lschungen, entsprechende Homepage ist gerade im Aufbau

Herb · 10-04-2005, 11:01 AM

Blkhand, very interesting report. I'd be very wary of taking this individuals advice in total as an authority on Luger pistols. His statement that all parts of a Luger (p.08) after 1937 are black is totally incorrect. Actually only about 20% of the p.08's made have the black grips and are referred to as 'black widows'. The majority being the byf/41 and 42's. Supposedly this term was coined by Luger collector and dealer Ralph Shattuck as a marketing ploy and has no basis what so ever in any authentic luger manufacturing method or reason and to my knowledge was never associated with the SS. I can't comment on the Dansig test or the Eastern Air Force Lugers as I haven't heard of them. There are other members here on the forum that can give you the sequence of serial numbers that would most likely have the black bakelite grips and other info about them.

becker · 10-30-2005, 01:17 PM

I am no expert on lugers but my one thought on this topic is the that we assume the vet aquired all of his items during the war. I have found in my experience that this is not always the case. Perhaps he went to a gunshow to "value" his SS items and bought a an SS gun to "complete" his collection. I am not saying this is the case here just a possibility.

Roadkill · 10-30-2005, 08:20 PM

blkhand, I'd appreciate the link to the German Military Forum. Thanks

rk

Heinz · 10-30-2005, 08:23 PM

I would add the caution that faking of German Militaria, especially Lugers was well established by the late 1960s. Strange Lugers and strange stories are and should be suspect. Any number of competent American gunsmith's made alterations to WWII bringbacks and to Lugers sold cheaply through military surplus at the time. Lugers could be bought very reasonably and no one found anything unethical in prettying up a shooter, or a treasured war trophy. Just consider all those nickle plated P08's; would not the prevalence of them surely prove that they were issued, probably to high ranking officers :-) Far more likely to find a 40 year old gunsmith alteration than a previously unheard of "special model Luger".

Herb · 10-30-2005, 09:09 PM

Heinz, ordinarily I would agree with you, however, just every now and then a really good opportunity comes by that can't be ignored ......................

http://members.aol.com/wolffel2/lugerstory.htm

Heinz · 10-31-2005, 07:42 PM

Touche Herb!

Leon DeSpain · 10-31-2005, 11:49 PM

About 15 years ago Shattuck was selling Ku marked 41/42 P.08s as "Eastern Air Force" guns.

Regards, Leon

becker · 11-01-2005, 09:13 PM

Two other things strike me about this situation:

1) If it was unit marked by an unit armour does that make it legit luger variation?

2) the potential buyer needed 3 hours to be convinced into the sale or semi-sale,I don't know about anyone else i never like to have to sell a gun rather i like my guns to sell themselves .....especially with a $3-4000.00 price tag.

10-01-2005, 04:12 PM	#21
c3006 User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: east tn Posts: 526 Thanks: 5 Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts	I cant find this pistol relisted on GB, do you recon this means he sold it to one of the bidders off the auction site? Im still a little spooked as far as he has no feedback on the site. clint __________________ Men Accustomed unto thier arms and their liberties will never endure the yoke. James Harrington 1776

10-01-2005, 06:34 PM	#22
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Seller Clint, it's possible he contacted the higest bidder and made a deal with him at a reduced price, or he might be letting it cool awhile before listing it again. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

10-02-2005, 10:11 AM	#24
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	That is a possibility, the wife wants to go to KA to visit with the kids and grandkids for Thanksgiving. One of them can drive up to Reno and get her on Thurs and then I can go to Sac on Sunday, as much as I even hate to set foot in that state after living there for 27 years. Four years ago she had the car parked in front of her oldest daughters house and it got broken into, gota love that place! __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

10-03-2005, 06:47 PM	#29
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	SS Luger Now I'm getting confused, again! "The photo shows an eagle stamp left of the skull. It is the way that the eagle was marked AFTER 1945 by german authorities. This gun is 100% safe to be a fake with a crude story " I just looked at my 1937 S/42 and it has the identical markings, less the SS and skull, that this one shows. I don't think it was made after 1945 but I might be wrong. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

10-03-2005, 06:47 PM	#30
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	I'd say the seller sounds like a heck of a man though! Sounds like he is good to go... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-02-2005, 12:05 AM	#23
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Herb, if you are still following this thread, I did speak personally to Mike Krause today. He said he would be happy to examine your dagger if you can weather HWY 50 in November. No one knows what the weather will be like, it may be 70 degrees and clear! Or maybe not.

10-02-2005, 11:22 AM	#25
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	They say in California, it's the cheese! I say it's the weather. It certainly is NOT the people!

10-02-2005, 11:36 AM	#26
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	com'on doc, we're both people here! ain't we OK? and cars are never broken into any other state???.....I think its our poor political climate, but there is still a few good ones here, even Pete

10-03-2005, 06:09 PM	#27
blkhand New User Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi, everyone! New here, but was one of the highest bidders on the luger. Ken, I spoke with on the phone for a good three hours, and he is a very smart, intellentent, and seems to be very honest gentlemen! I/we agreed to a deal, and I just backed out. I only backed out because for that kind of money, and not sure it's 100% can be very scary! BUT, I also speak german, and deal on a German Military Forum. Seems German's know alot more right off the bat about Thrid Reich items. You really don't get a MAYBE, you'll get a Yes/No right off the bat with a good explaination why. Here is what he said, at the end of what he was saying about fake lugers. "The photo shows an eagle stamp left of the skull. It is the way that the eagle was marked AFTER 1945 by german authorities. This gun is 100% safe to be a fake with a crude story "

10-03-2005, 06:24 PM	#28
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Well, do I need to eat a little crow here?, well if so I will.

10-03-2005, 08:33 PM	#31
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Blkhand, Welcome to the Luger Forum, we're very glad that you came and weighed in on this topic. I believe you made a prudent decision about this Luger. Those of us who have a copy of Sam Costanzo's "World of Lugers--Proof Marks" reference book at hand, have a resource with which to dispute the conclusion of your German correspondent. The eagle referenced on the gun is the standard Mauser test proof stamp used on Lugers 1936-1939. --Dwight

10-04-2005, 08:19 AM	#32
blkhand New User Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi, Here's what he said, i just copyed and pasted for you guys..... Hi there! IÃ?Â´ve seen some of these advertisement before, and they all have one thing in common: They are trying to sell a maybe valuable gun for a horrifying amount of money. Unfortunately, especially the american market has a certain....affinity to items like these. Stamping a gun (no matter wich) with a skull -type sign, a rune or some other mere fantasy sign seems to be a kind of permit for printing smebodyÃ?Â´s own dollar bills. Some of the falsifications are so old, that they are seen to be proven originals just for the long time they are on the market. The absolutely best piece of literature concerning the P08 , written by Joachim GÃ?Â¶rtz takes care of some phenomenons wich happen to show up from time to time and cause itchy fingers at some collectors. As the book is written in german ,it might not yet be translated- and actually German is a quite difficult language. So let me just list up some of the most common fakes wich are mentioned. - The "black widow" -tale. All parts on the P08 after Ã?Â´37 were black, some sellers created a bullxxxx story that this was just for the SS said it had to be that way. -"Danzig test Lugers" - there were no such tests in Danzig...fairy tale, either -"Eastern Airforce Luger" : Price -pushing tale concerning the late (41/42) P08 models. They may be expensive anyway, the story is rubbish. -"Totenkopf Lugers" There were several stamped P08 wich were manufactured during WW1. But there is absolutely no proof that even they are originals. Every P08 produced during the NS era and stamped with a skull or SS runes is most likely to be a fake anyway. The discussions, wether the skull guns are originals or not, have some kind of religious character. Owners (and sellers) on thre one hand, sceptics on the other. Divided through the holy $dollar$ or Ã¢?Â¬uro. For example: A real fine matching numbers P08 S/42 1940 sells for about 1000 to 1300Ã¢?Â¬ here in Germany. Maximum. Place a deadhead or a rune on it and double or triple the value. Making money is a very popular hobby. Here and elsewhrere. The malicious thing about it is, that -once you hold an excellent P08 in your hands- you (and me and almost everybody else ) will feel the..fascination? The "must have" feeling. Know what I mean? Guess yes ! My recommendment: Take the money and buy an excellent P08 , matching numbers, spare magazine , leather holster and accessories. They are xxxxxxx expensive either, and the value will remain stable or rise. A skull on the gun would be a "no buy" criteria for me and for lots of other collectors. If you have time and money enough, come to Germany and visit auctions. These are the places where the real good stuff is sold. I can provide you the necessary info & adresses, if youÃ?Â´re interested. A lot of collectors die in these years wich started buying Lugers when we both probably still were liquid. Old men with a lot of money, time and knowledge. These collections will be sold in the next few years. German laws make it almost impossible for the children to keep the guns without special permits. Sad but true. But the guns IÃ?Â´m talking about right now are the harvard material. I wouldnÃ?Â´t go for less...itÃ?Â´s expensive enough anyway. Best regards! P.S.: Just mentioned the photo below is not a banner...The photo shows an eagle stamp left of the skull. It is the way that the eagle was marked AFTER 1945 by german authorities. This gun is 100% safe to be a fake with a crude story __________________ Suche Erkennungsmarken aller Art,von Boden- bis Dachbodenfund, auch Abbildungen von definitiven FÃ?Â¤lschungen, entsprechende Homepage ist gerade im Aufbau

10-04-2005, 11:01 AM	#33
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Blkhand, very interesting report. I'd be very wary of taking this individuals advice in total as an authority on Luger pistols. His statement that all parts of a Luger (p.08) after 1937 are black is totally incorrect. Actually only about 20% of the p.08's made have the black grips and are referred to as 'black widows'. The majority being the byf/41 and 42's. Supposedly this term was coined by Luger collector and dealer Ralph Shattuck as a marketing ploy and has no basis what so ever in any authentic luger manufacturing method or reason and to my knowledge was never associated with the SS. I can't comment on the Dansig test or the Eastern Air Force Lugers as I haven't heard of them. There are other members here on the forum that can give you the sequence of serial numbers that would most likely have the black bakelite grips and other info about them. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

10-30-2005, 01:17 PM	#34
becker User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I am no expert on lugers but my one thought on this topic is the that we assume the vet aquired all of his items during the war. I have found in my experience that this is not always the case. Perhaps he went to a gunshow to "value" his SS items and bought a an SS gun to "complete" his collection. I am not saying this is the case here just a possibility.

10-30-2005, 08:20 PM	#35
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	blkhand, I'd appreciate the link to the German Military Forum. Thanks rk

10-30-2005, 08:23 PM	#36
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	I would add the caution that faking of German Militaria, especially Lugers was well established by the late 1960s. Strange Lugers and strange stories are and should be suspect. Any number of competent American gunsmith's made alterations to WWII bringbacks and to Lugers sold cheaply through military surplus at the time. Lugers could be bought very reasonably and no one found anything unethical in prettying up a shooter, or a treasured war trophy. Just consider all those nickle plated P08's; would not the prevalence of them surely prove that they were issued, probably to high ranking officers :-) Far more likely to find a 40 year old gunsmith alteration than a previously unheard of "special model Luger".

10-30-2005, 09:09 PM	#37
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Heinz, ordinarily I would agree with you, however, just every now and then a really good opportunity comes by that can't be ignored ...................... http://members.aol.com/wolffel2/lugerstory.htm __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

10-31-2005, 07:42 PM	#38
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Touche Herb!

10-31-2005, 11:49 PM	#39
Leon DeSpain User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 124 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts	About 15 years ago Shattuck was selling Ku marked 41/42 P.08s as "Eastern Air Force" guns. Regards, Leon

11-01-2005, 09:13 PM	#40
becker User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Two other things strike me about this situation: 1) If it was unit marked by an unit armour does that make it legit luger variation? 2) the potential buyer needed 3 hours to be convinced into the sale or semi-sale,I don't know about anyone else i never like to have to sell a gun rather i like my guns to sell themselves .....especially with a $3-4000.00 price tag.