SS luger on gunbroker

[MG]

Hello
I saw this on Gunbroker and I think it is a fake... looks like a very nice matching gun tho. The proof mark for the Death head looks to ruff to me,what do you all think?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=37777434

I do not have anything to do with this sale, just like infomation please.


Thank you
Michael

[Edward Tinker]

How many members did the SS Verfugungstruppe have? How many would have been issued lugers, P38's, other equipment?

In other words, shouldn't this "marking", if real be common?

Ed

[Ron Smith]

A pretty poorly etched job , in my opinion. A clumsy attempt by some wanna be booster.

[Vlim]

Well, someone obviously messed up a relatively nice 1938 S/42.

[Ron Wood]

Gerben,
My thoughts exactly. Some airhead has taken a fairly worthy Luger and reduced it to junk.

[c3006]

Did anyone else notice how professional the seller seems to be to not have any feedback??

[Frank]

Further, the magazine appears to be a center pin type. They weren't issued to Military Mausers until 1940.

[MG]

Hello All,
That is just what I was thinking that someone messed up a nice 1938 S/42... what if the marking was removed by Mr. Green, whould it still be a shooter/junk? Sad thing is I saw a G marked Luger on ebay last month that the idiot was selling for parts. I ask if it had been a matching gun and was told yes it was.....I almost cryed...

Thank you
MG

[Ron Smith]

Frank,
If you look closely at the mag base. It is an early base that has been drilled to fit the center pin tube. Drilled off center and peened to death. Dave Molchen noticed it in the discussion on Still's forum. This whole pistol is a cluster......"performance".

Ron

[policeluger]

With respct to all, and this is a great place to exchange information, could we be wrong here?. I know nothing of WW2 era guns, or of SS divisions, but the gun is at $3000, and the reserve is not reached, the seller is not blinking an eye and taking it off the marked as sold, he still hangs on for a better price, I think if I was running a scam, I would by now take the money and run...I can't list all the folks here whos expertise I respect, it would run into the hundreds....but we here on LF are really a small fraction of the Luger collection world, so many more collectors out there that we have not heard from, so much more information to be gathered....perhaps just the ramblings of an old tired man...

[Vlim]

Hi,

Well, the seller could be convinced it's real. Remember, there's not a shred of evidence which points towards either ss-acceptance or ss-marking. They were supplied through the usual channels, as were other German police or military units.

The most striking example was shown at one of the forums a couple of years ago. A luger that was recovered from the place where it was buried, wrapped in an SS-zeltbahn. It was a straightforward Mauser banner without any particular SS-markings.

[MG]

Hello All,
here is the responce I had when I let him know that this may have been faked.(long)
Ps I was nice about tell him
MG


27 September 2005


Greystone1
mgwilling@hotmail.com

SUBJECT: SS Proof Marked Luger Opinion Response


Dear Greystone1:

Thanks for taking the time to forward me your comments concerning the SS acceptance stamped pre WW2 1938 Luger presently being auctioned by our firm on Gunbroker.com

Had I not been a collector of militaria for well over forty (40) years and lived to see so many "the earth is flat" pontifications made by alleged experts proven wrong time and time again, I might give more credence to the comments you referenced in your communication.

EXPERT OPINIONS

Unfortunately, when expert opinions are meant to apply to issues beyond normal events they tend to move into a world of absolutes where statements like "there is no such thing as a proof mark like this", are more often than not actually only predicated on someone's opinion rather than representing any provable facts.

As an aside, if you fairly investigate virtually any reference books now on the market in any field which have resulted in the publication of a second volume, have you ever noticed how many pages in that second edition are required to be devoted to addressing significant errors made by the author in the first edition which they are now forced to retract or correct based on new evidence.

Most often, these errors occur because of two (2) areas of procedural quick sand:

1) The erroneous assumption that a nation like Germany operated in an absolute
environment of bureaucracy from day to day which was divorced from the
application of common sense or expediency in meeting the requirements of
their people, industries or armed forces respectively.

2) That a statement or opinion appearing in a previous work written by another author
must be true if it has not been subsequently corrected in a volume two, and is
therefore repeated by the most recent author as if it were gospel, instead of
that person spending the time to investigate its accuracy.

THE POWER OF BELIEFS

While it is not difficult to change people's ideas, it is always exceeding hard to change people's beliefs once they become generally accepted as being fact, whether actually true or not. As an example of the first concept at work, I have a friend who has written a number of books on the subject of collectible Corvettes. In one of his various works, he noted that the 1959 Corvette had three (3) distinct brake drum configurations.

However, in a conversation with a GM technician who actually worked for the Corvette product manager in 1959, subsequent to the publishing of his book, my friend discovered for the first time that GM had actually produced a small number of vehicles having a fourth brake drum configuration in 1959 which were specially manufactured or a special application that never made it into large scale production.

Several weeks later at a car show, my friend was almost assaulted by a very agitated collector who vehemently argued with him that there were only three (3) brake drum configurations in 1959. Ironically, the agitated collector stated he could prove his point, and did so, by referencing the book he read it in, which turned out to be my friend's book. Similarly, I was the senior product manager at Smith & Wesson in Springfield, Massachusetts from 1979 to 1985. During that time, I participated or initiated a number of marketing and promotional events which, while never making it into the company's public records, occurred nevertheless.

One such occasion was the retirement of the range master for NYPD who had been a long and loyal user of Smith & Wesson products. As such, to honor that individual, we produced a special model 60 Smith & Wesson pistol for presentation to the retiring NYPD Range Master that we had serialized with that persons initials
followed by the number 001.

Some years later, in what became a heated discussion, a devoted Smith & Wesson Collector, without knowing my background, tried to convince me at a gun show I was exhibiting at in no uncertain terms that Smith & Wesson never issued firearms with personalized serial numbers under any circumstance. When asked how he could make such an absolute statement without ever working at Smith & Wesson, he stated that he knew this for a fact because if it had been true it would have been
noted in Roy Jinks book.

Nothing short of a time machine where this person could be taken back and physically shown this practice in action would ever serve to convince this collector that his belief in this instance was wrong.

ABSOLUTE OPINIONS IN GERMAN MILITARIA

I could go on and give you numerous examples in the field of German militaria where time and time again over the years, the so called expert position has eventually been proven wrong based on the personal knowledge and experience of an individual who was actually there, such as myself in the Smith & Wesson example, and is able to articulate this information to others based on certain knowledge of what actually occurred, instead of simply reading and parroting the opinions expressed in someone else's collecting bible.

As practical examples, I cannot tell you how many years it took before absolute opinions like only certain firms could make SS daggers, only high swastika iron crosses are real, there were no RZM approved restrikes of pre RZM era medals and day badges produced in Nazi Germany were eventually proven to be completely wrong.

More succinctly, while many younger novice collectors fall for such nonsense and sell off items identified by an expert as being a repro for next to nothing, thinking them reproductions, the so called experts, once they got their hands on the item(s) in question suddenly change their tune and declare the piece involved to be a rare variation which, now that they are selling it, is suddenly worth a whole lot more than what the novice collector received when he dumped it at a low price thinking it to be a repro.

SS LUGER EXAMPLE

In the specific case of the SS proof marked Luger we are discussing, how many of the alleged experts who pontificated on the originality of this item have ever actually seen, handled or physically inspected one on the market anywhere, where genuine or repro, in order to be able to make an informed comment.

Assuming for a second that you are correct in your assertion that "no such mark ever existed", how would anyone ever be able to make such an absolute statement and prove a negative position unless they first studied all available surviving records and photographs to determine the probability of such an item having actually been made?

In short, one can only logically prove a negative by first performing a complete study of all possible eventualities and then ruling out those probabilities that could not possibly happen. As we both know that level of research could not have been applied in this matter, isn't it more accurate to state that my item is not real because the expert(s) you rely on have never seen one before and, consequently, feel more comfortable taking a negative adversarial position than a supporting one which might cost them credibility with their loyal followers, followed by lost sales revenues.

More candidly, how many of the experts you quoted me in this instance would sell this unique firearm for the $500 sum you mentioned should they eventually become the one who owns it?

COMMON SENSE RULES THE DAY

In the end, the Germans of 1938 were a practical people with common sense who were no different than we are in trying to accomplish an assigned or necessary task, particularly in times of unrest, by employing whatever resources are available to do the job.

Exploring that historical context for a moment, in 1938 the SS-VT was an extremely small organization, fighting for resources and credibility in a political battle with the Army and other armed services for the allocation of whatever scarce resources it could claim for itself.

More specifically, General Paul Hauser, the SS-VT Commander had given a priority to developing the morale of the three SS-VT formations under his command by instilling a sense of uniqueness that would give his troops an identify that was their own and would separate them from any other German Armed Forces organization.

To best accomplish this on a very modest fiscal budget, one of his pet procedures was to insure that all unit materials were properly marked so as to avoid them somehow showing up in the hands of the Allegemeine SS, the Army, Luftwaffe or any of the other entities with whom he was now competing for resources.

In the environment created by a serious political and financial competition for resources and manpower, which the SS-VT found itself in the pre war period, do you realistically believe, simply because some alleged expert said so, that armorers for the SS-VT would not place unique acceptance stamps on firearms issued to it?

Incidentally, during my time as an officer in the 5th Special Forces at Fort Bragg during the Vietnam War we did the exact same thing to mark our serialized equipment, to include M-16s and other weapons simply because they were in short supply and we wanted to insure they did not accidentally end up down the street with the 82nd Airborne by accident or theft. If we were practical enough to do this, why wouldn't you think that the SS-VT might not also come to the same conclusion as well?

PERSONAL BACKGROUND

By the way, the Luger in question was originally purchased by me more than twenty five (25) years ago, together with a variety of original SS insignia and other German WWII artifacts, from the son of a deceased WWII veteran. And while it is always possible that the deceased veteran, or his son, somehow arranged to produced this firearm, would it make sense for them to then sell it to me for the small amount of money that I actually ended up paying for the entire lot of items I purchased?

In summary, I know this firearm to be real for that reason alone. When that personal certainty is supported by a variety of other common sense points, such as, have you ever seen another one?, the issue of someone else's negative opinion(s) no longer
holds the weight it might have otherwise held if it had been related to completely uninformed collectors who simply did not have the experience to know that they are just as smart in practical terms than the expert(s) in whom they erroneously place absolute trust.

Having said that, I assure you that some years from now, despite the opinion expressed in your communication, this luger will be in an appropriate museum somewhere where it belongs. Of course, this unfortunately cannot probably happen until one of the experts in question finally own it and suddenly realizes that it is a rare and valuable variation.

SUMMARY

In closing, I would like to take this opportunity once again to thank you for the kindness and professional courtesy you extended to me in taking the time to write and share your information with me in this matter. I wish you the best of success in all of your future collecting efforts.

Best Regards,


Ken Grosick
kedico@gte.net

[policeluger]

Not to put anyone on the spot, respect to all posted above, now what are your feeling toward the gun in queston? you can PM me if you like....this is just a search for truth and new developments as we all learn together...

[thegundude]

Well, I'd say that since the price is up to $3,500 now and still not at the reserve, I'd say someone thinks it's worth some jack.

[Dwight Gruber]

Howard,

Since you ask, my own feelings toward this gun have not changed--that is, feelings of suspicion and uncertainty.

Ken Grosnick appears sincere in his belief that the piece is original. Nothing he presents approachs the level of provenance. In that sense, this is the perfect example of Buy The Gun, Not The Story.

Could it be real? We are in a collecting era of Lugers coming 'out of the woodwork' , guns originating from veterans coming available due to their demise--guns coming out of the attic, the closet, the dresser drawer, which may not have seen the light of day in 50 years. Guns, certainly, which have not been known to collectors. There will, no doubt, be heretofore unknown variations, both minor and major--the sheer numbers of Lugers produced virtually guarantees this.

However, there are long-established practices regarding verification of guns like this--comparison to other known examples (both Lugers and otherwise), research into the documents and records of the era in question, research into the known practices of the organizations involved, detailed examination of the marking and its application. The photos presented are too low resolution to even make out the marking in detail, and the marking has been filled in with white making it impossible to determine how the mark was applied.

Ken's conclusions about the armory practices of the SS-VT do not rise beyond informed speculation, with no more substantiation than the opinion he would counter.

It is a disservice to the collecting of Lugers and the reliability of the body of knowledge underpinning the hobby, to accept The Story without applying rigorous method, particularly in the case of a potentially significant Luger as the one presented here.

Spandau Lugers, as a comparison, come to mind.

Ken does say one thing which relates to something which has been on my mind.

"...the Luger in question was originally purchased by me more than twenty five (25) years ago, together with a variety of original SS insignia and other German WWII artifacts, from the son of a deceased WWII veteran. And while it is always possible that the deceased veteran, or his son, somehow arranged to produced this firearm, would it make sense for them to then sell it to me for the small amount of money that I actually ended up paying for the entire lot of items I purchased?"

I have noticed a propensity of collectors to claim that a Luger has been in a known collection for a period of time, indicating that it has been around and known long enough that boosting or fakery has not been applied. The figure of 30-35 years is a common benchmark. In this case, the gun was purchased some 25 years ago.

That would have been 1980.

There is no accounting for what might have been done to this, or any Luger, in the 35 years since the end of the war. We do know that modifications of Lugers have been applied since the early '50s, things which were at that time innocent--renumbering of magazines, or making matching-number guns--which today vex us so. Length of ownership is no guarantee, particularly when the original owner is no longer around to verify.

The last part of the quote, about the unliklihood of the veteran or his son producing such a piece and then selling it cheap, also deserves comment.

It is not hard to imagine another scenerio for the marking on this gun. I do not even mention it here as speculation, only to suggest an equally plausable, equally unfounded, alternative.

This veteran brought back a variety of wartime artifacts including SS memoribelia. Imagine that, sometime in the early years after the war, he decided that he would like to have his Luger "fit" that collection--for any number of possible reasons. So, he has someone apply the marking. This is done in all innocence, no thought of 'boosting' the gun for future profit (although lilely not talked about)--no thought of selling the gun at all. When his heirs eventually do sell it, it is still innocent--they are unaware of the potential value of such an authentic piece, and so let it go as a very nice Luger. The awareness is a collector awareness, and comes later.

Without real provenance we cannot know.

I must note here that, lest I sound negative and judgemental about this Luger: I have never examined it; I cannot see anything in the pictures which begin to let me assess the marking itself; it comes from an era of history which is not my area of study and of which I have but superficial knowledge. I lack the qualifications and information to determine this Luger's authenticity.

So what are my feelings about this gun now? Deeply sceptical.

Sorry for another lecture, you did ask...

--Dwight

[zinfull]

Well he is right about proving a negative ( no dead head or SS proof). But all positives, formal inspections and procedures, implies a correct negative. So if you buy a negative thats what you get. As for that S&W for a NYPD range person I would bet that the gun was fully registered and has a paper trail of some kind. All the other units would put the markings on the grips in big letters. A small proof mark is easy to over come when you steal a pistol. You can take a chance, win or lose, it is only money. IMHO

[Herb]

The thing that impressed me about the sellers letter is his feeling towards the so-called 'experts' and their opinions. I have had a similar experience with an 'expert' that I'll relate here. In the early part of 1987 I was in southern Germany on business and a friend who was with me knew of a militaria shop in Penzberg not far south of Munich where we were at the time. This shop owner advertised in an American magazine that he had authentic militaria, actually somewhat rare in Germany because of the swastika emblems being illegal since the end of the war. We went there and introduced ourselves and were taken down the street to a doorway that led into an underground storage section below street level. This guy had all kinds of stuff down there, it was unbelievable! While my friend was negotiating a price on something I was nosing around looking in boxes and such when I came across a box with dress daggers in it. Being a collector of Nazi dress daggers, at the time, I was really excited. I pawed thru them, carefully, and came across a 1936 chained SS officer's dagger in like new condition, my hands were shaking just holding it and admiring it and it was the only one I had seen outside of pictures and it was perfect. Well, I bought it to make the story a little shorter. After I got back home I began to wonder about the excellant condition of the dagger. I sent it to Ltc Thomas Johnson (ret) for examination, as he is supposedly the leading authority on Third Reich edged weapons. $125 later he sends it back with his short letter telling me it's a fake. This really gets me excited as I had paid over $1,000 for this thing. I decide to write to the shop owner in Penzberg and see if he has any info on it. In April of 87 I get a letter back from him with the following information. "As to the former owner of the SS-Leader's chained dagger that you purchased here I can advise you of the following dates: Karl Fritz, Sturmbahnnfuhrer in the staff of the SS-section Alpenland, SS-Membership number: 356862. In WW1 Karl Fritz was a 1st lieutenant. I hope that this can be of assistance to you." The name was on a tag in the tunic (I had seen the complete uniform when I was there) and he had found the other info on an SS-seniority list that he had. Now armed with this information I wrote to the Mission in Berlin Germany, specifically the Berlin Document Center where the records of Nazi's were stored. I knew this as I had been stationed at the 766th MID in Berling in the early 70's and had on occasion used this service. I recieved an answer from the director of the BDC. Along with it he had photocopied the entire military file on Karl Fritz, who in fact did exist and did have the serial number given to me and enclosed it with his letter. It had official documentation in it up until April 1944 then nothing folowing that. Ok, now I have official documentation that the SS officer existed, that the dagger did in fact go with the uniform that the shop owner had and had sent the information to me. Now, do I have an SS dagger that a real SS officer had purchased as a fake sometime prior to 1944 or do I have an authentic SS dagger contrary to what the expert thinks? If this dagger is a fake it is the best one I have ever seen, and I have seen several of them since then, I actually own one of them. The worksmanship if of a jewell like quality, this is no cheap stamped out Indian or Spanish repo. I put this here to point out that the 'experts' can only go by what they have themselves seen and feel is correct, but sometimes if it seems too good to be true, it just might not be.

[policeluger]

Well I waited for the gun to close before replying, $3,650.00 and 18 bids and still did not meet reserve...but that was not my question. Dwight my friend, never a lecture, always a pleasure to bask in your knowledge and analytical light, Herb had about the same experance with a German native who was going to sell me his fathers SS daggers, two way postage to the Col., and he told me I could have sent a picture for him to look because it was such a bad fake.
All I lost was two way postage and gained needed knowledge, that I had no knowledge and leave daggers well enough alone. And you are so right that the experts can only go on what they feel is correct...and that either we will accept or reject the gun, based upon our experances...
Thank you all for opening my eyes a bit more, all the Luger lore is still not uncovered, we must go with caution, but must be willing to go with open eyes, not closed ones. Now when a second gun is discovered....oh well that is for another day....best to each and everyone of you..

[drbuster]

Herb, Have you had your dagger examined by any other experts? I am thinking of Michael Krause, here in central California. He has several of these (or similar) items in his shop and frequents the three yearly Reno shows. Could you bring it if you are planning to attend?

[Herb]

Herb, I haven't had him look at it but there was one more 'expert' that collected daggers at one of the gun shows in Sacramento a few years back that laughed when I told him about it. I unwrapped it and handed it to him and I could see that he was visibly shaken and he immediately offered to give me what I had paid for it. I still have it. If I can make it to the spring Reno show I'll drag it along, the problem with that is the nasty weather between here and there on Hwy 50.