Help dating a Luger

JimD · 09-23-2005, 04:12 AM

I just bought a very clean DWM that is marked in the commercial manner in regards to the serial numbers on parts.

The proof marks are on the left side of the receiver/barrel assembly in front of the side plate. Eagle, crown over a T and crown over a 3. There is no toggle hold open and no stock lug. The chamber is not dated.

The serial number is 434a and the entire gun is matching save for the magazine.

The gun is easily in the 95%-98% range the only things hurting it are that the side plate, while correctly marked 34 on the bottom, has been stamped 09 on the side, x'd out then stamped above that 434. The front strap, right above the bottom of the grip frame, is stamped B.M.S.45.

The gun is a vet bring-back and came with a WWI holster. The story is the widow's husband took it off a dead german in WWII and the gun was possibly used in police service prior to WWII. I will speak to her next week and get the whole story.

Can anyone help me with an approx. production year? I originally posted this in the commercial section but find it may be an early military gun. There is no crown over and N anywhere.

George Anderson · 09-23-2005, 08:40 AM

Jim, you have a P08 first model military, it probably left the DWM factory in 1909. The fact that it does not have a hold-open added is a good indication that it did not see police use after the first war. The property marking on the front grip strap indicates Bayerische Militaer-Schiess-Schule (Bavarian Military Gunnery School). A very good find and worth considering getting the side plate "fixed".

JimD · 09-23-2005, 10:45 AM

Thanks, George. I'll try to send pics but considering my description any idea as to value? the holster is marked on the underside of the flap but not dated.

JimD · 09-23-2005, 11:08 AM

Would Thor be the person to "fix" the side plate or should I leave it alone?

George Anderson · 09-23-2005, 11:11 AM

Jim, we would need to see photos before estimating value or what course to follow with restoration.

JimD · 09-23-2005, 11:30 AM

I figured as much. I'll take some photos today and post them as soon as I can.

JimD · 09-23-2005, 12:14 PM

Here's photos:

JimD · 09-23-2005, 12:17 PM

The photos don't do this gun justice. It is very clean and is really at least 95%. Holster and handling wear to the edges and high points with some freckling on the grip frame but it hasn't removed the finish.

Ron Wood · 09-23-2005, 12:47 PM

Great gun! That one is a keeper. Bavarian guns invariably do not have an added holdopen. Evidently the Bavarians had little regard for Prussian directives to add it.

George Anderson · 09-23-2005, 01:03 PM

Jim, Mr Wood is right, it's a keeper! I would recommend sending the side plate to Ted Green to be restored to its original condition. Ted should be able to do a pretty quick job for you if you just send him the side plate. If the plate had not been boogered, the pistol would bring about $2000 maybe more.

JimD · 09-23-2005, 01:06 PM

Thanks, Ron. When I first got it I thought the BMS 45 was possibly initials and the date it was captured. I also suspected it could be a unit marking but have no experience with any. My gut feeling was I'd better buy it. I will most likely be in touch with the widow I'm buying from today. When I get what history I can I'll post it. I don't want to sell the gun but am interested in a ball park value. Any ideas?

JimD · 09-24-2005, 07:25 PM

Well, I almost lost this gun. The way I came across it was a friend was trying to sell it for a lady he knew. Her husband passed away and had taken it off a dead German soldier during the war. She had only told my friend to get a fair price for it. Before I knew how early the gun was and what the markings were I offered $500 and my friend said that would be fine.

He called me the next day and said she wanted more for the gun then told him she had had it appraised for around $1200 and wanted no less than $1000. Apparently she'd done that before she asked him to sell it for her and never told him. She asked for the gun back and wanted to take it to L.A. and have it looked at up there.

I could feel this rare find slipping through my grasp for good so I made the financial stretch and offered her $1000 and she said yes. Whew! That was too close. I didn't want to hang onto the gun for it's higher value but for the history it has. She said I could call her tonight and she'd tell me all about her husband and what she knew about him getting the gun.

Edward Tinker · 09-24-2005, 07:34 PM

I think I would hold off on having the side-plate "fixed", its interesting now, having the 34 on the bottom, then the other numbers...

ed

JimD · 09-24-2005, 07:49 PM

That's good advice, Ed. My wife says the same thing. That's the way I was leaning. My gut feeling is that it's part of the history of the gun and was done for some reason. I'd hate to correct it then find out it was done for a specific purpose and then have lost it to history.

JimD · 09-29-2005, 04:08 AM

I finally got the story on the gun. The man who got it was in the Army Air Corps in Germany right after the war. He was with some friends and one of them found a cache of guns. His buddies called out to him to come and get one. Thinking the good ones were already taken he went along and found the one I now have. His name was Ivan "Ike" Dethman. He was later a Col. in the USAF and was instrumental in helping the F-111 get into service doing a lot of the test flying in Viet Nam.

According to his widow he researched the gun and somehow determined it had seen police service prior to WWII. The only thing I can see that would give him that impression is the non-matching mag has a "+" stamped on it.

The magazine's number is 2527d. Wood bottom/ nickel. The other magazine that came with it is blue stamped, alum bottom marked 8484.

George Anderson · 09-30-2005, 08:03 PM

Jim the mag with (+) on it is the second, third, etc mag to an Army pistol.

JimD · 10-01-2005, 03:49 AM

Thanks, George. I had forgotten that.

09-23-2005, 04:12 AM	#1
JimD User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 179 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Help dating a Luger I just bought a very clean DWM that is marked in the commercial manner in regards to the serial numbers on parts. The proof marks are on the left side of the receiver/barrel assembly in front of the side plate. Eagle, crown over a T and crown over a 3. There is no toggle hold open and no stock lug. The chamber is not dated. The serial number is 434a and the entire gun is matching save for the magazine. The gun is easily in the 95%-98% range the only things hurting it are that the side plate, while correctly marked 34 on the bottom, has been stamped 09 on the side, x'd out then stamped above that 434. The front strap, right above the bottom of the grip frame, is stamped B.M.S.45. The gun is a vet bring-back and came with a WWI holster. The story is the widow's husband took it off a dead german in WWII and the gun was possibly used in police service prior to WWII. I will speak to her next week and get the whole story. Can anyone help me with an approx. production year? I originally posted this in the commercial section but find it may be an early military gun. There is no crown over and N anywhere. __________________ "Dyin' aint much of a livin', boy".

09-23-2005, 10:45 AM	#3
JimD User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 179 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Thanks, George. I'll try to send pics but considering my description any idea as to value? the holster is marked on the underside of the flap but not dated. __________________ "Dyin' aint much of a livin', boy".

09-23-2005, 11:08 AM	#4
JimD User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 179 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Would Thor be the person to "fix" the side plate or should I leave it alone? __________________ "Dyin' aint much of a livin', boy".

09-23-2005, 11:30 AM	#6
JimD User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 179 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	I figured as much. I'll take some photos today and post them as soon as I can. __________________ "Dyin' aint much of a livin', boy".

09-23-2005, 12:14 PM	#7
JimD User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 179 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Here's photos: __________________ "Dyin' aint much of a livin', boy".

09-23-2005, 08:40 AM	#2
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Jim, you have a P08 first model military, it probably left the DWM factory in 1909. The fact that it does not have a hold-open added is a good indication that it did not see police use after the first war. The property marking on the front grip strap indicates Bayerische Militaer-Schiess-Schule (Bavarian Military Gunnery School). A very good find and worth considering getting the side plate "fixed".

09-23-2005, 11:11 AM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Jim, we would need to see photos before estimating value or what course to follow with restoration.

09-23-2005, 12:17 PM	#8
JimD User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 179 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	The photos don't do this gun justice. It is very clean and is really at least 95%. Holster and handling wear to the edges and high points with some freckling on the grip frame but it hasn't removed the finish. __________________ "Dyin' aint much of a livin', boy".

09-23-2005, 12:47 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Great gun! That one is a keeper. Bavarian guns invariably do not have an added holdopen. Evidently the Bavarians had little regard for Prussian directives to add it. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-23-2005, 01:03 PM	#10
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Jim, Mr Wood is right, it's a keeper! I would recommend sending the side plate to Ted Green to be restored to its original condition. Ted should be able to do a pretty quick job for you if you just send him the side plate. If the plate had not been boogered, the pistol would bring about $2000 maybe more.

09-23-2005, 01:06 PM	#11
JimD User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 179 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Thanks, Ron. When I first got it I thought the BMS 45 was possibly initials and the date it was captured. I also suspected it could be a unit marking but have no experience with any. My gut feeling was I'd better buy it. I will most likely be in touch with the widow I'm buying from today. When I get what history I can I'll post it. I don't want to sell the gun but am interested in a ball park value. Any ideas? __________________ "Dyin' aint much of a livin', boy".

09-24-2005, 07:25 PM	#12
JimD User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 179 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Well, I almost lost this gun. The way I came across it was a friend was trying to sell it for a lady he knew. Her husband passed away and had taken it off a dead German soldier during the war. She had only told my friend to get a fair price for it. Before I knew how early the gun was and what the markings were I offered $500 and my friend said that would be fine. He called me the next day and said she wanted more for the gun then told him she had had it appraised for around $1200 and wanted no less than $1000. Apparently she'd done that before she asked him to sell it for her and never told him. She asked for the gun back and wanted to take it to L.A. and have it looked at up there. I could feel this rare find slipping through my grasp for good so I made the financial stretch and offered her $1000 and she said yes. Whew! That was too close. I didn't want to hang onto the gun for it's higher value but for the history it has. She said I could call her tonight and she'd tell me all about her husband and what she knew about him getting the gun. __________________ "Dyin' aint much of a livin', boy".

09-24-2005, 07:34 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	I think I would hold off on having the side-plate "fixed", its interesting now, having the 34 on the bottom, then the other numbers... ed

09-24-2005, 07:49 PM	#14
JimD User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 179 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	That's good advice, Ed. My wife says the same thing. That's the way I was leaning. My gut feeling is that it's part of the history of the gun and was done for some reason. I'd hate to correct it then find out it was done for a specific purpose and then have lost it to history. __________________ "Dyin' aint much of a livin', boy".

09-29-2005, 04:08 AM	#15
JimD User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 179 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	I finally got the story on the gun. The man who got it was in the Army Air Corps in Germany right after the war. He was with some friends and one of them found a cache of guns. His buddies called out to him to come and get one. Thinking the good ones were already taken he went along and found the one I now have. His name was Ivan "Ike" Dethman. He was later a Col. in the USAF and was instrumental in helping the F-111 get into service doing a lot of the test flying in Viet Nam. According to his widow he researched the gun and somehow determined it had seen police service prior to WWII. The only thing I can see that would give him that impression is the non-matching mag has a "+" stamped on it. The magazine's number is 2527d. Wood bottom/ nickel. The other magazine that came with it is blue stamped, alum bottom marked 8484. __________________ "Dyin' aint much of a livin', boy".

09-30-2005, 08:03 PM	#16
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Jim the mag with (+) on it is the second, third, etc mag to an Army pistol.

10-01-2005, 03:49 AM	#17
JimD User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 179 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Thanks, George. I had forgotten that. __________________ "Dyin' aint much of a livin', boy".