Manufacturer's codes

unspellable · 08-23-2005, 02:10 PM

During the Nazi era it was the practice for German manufacturers to put a code mark on their military products rather than their name. In the early Nazi era this is understandable as an evasion of the Versailles treaty. But once Hitler was openly thumbing his nose at it, why keep up the pretense? Not much point during the war.

For example the Allies knew where mauser was located and knew jolly well they were cranking out firearms. They probably had other fish to fry than bombing mauser.

Vlim · 08-23-2005, 03:12 PM

Hi,

Well, Mauser was only one of thousands of contractors and subcontractors. With that amount of suppliers involved it makes sense to camoflage where they are located and what they are doing. A good example is the DWM site at Lubeck-Schlutup, which was disguised so well that it was invisible from the air and was never bombed. Would they have printed 'DWM Lubeck-Schlutup' all over the side or bottom of the product, it would give too much information away.

Another example: Mauser was not working from one site, but from 3 seperate sites in Oberndorf and one in Berlin during the 1930s.

The whole enterprise was to make it difficult for the outside world to interpret who did what, where and in what numbers while at the same time making it easier to interpret exactly the same thing within Germany.

It would be interesting to see period allied reports on German rearming and arms facilities, though. Just to get a feeling about what was exactly known about German facilities in general.

unspellable · 08-23-2005, 05:10 PM

I picked Mauser as an example because they were well known in Britain and the US before the war. But if Mauser had three plants going during the war, the Allies would not have know where two of them were, nor which made what.

During WWI handguns played a fairly prominent role, but in WWII they were pretty small potatoes. I would think the Allies would not bother bombing a hand gun line. Of course Mauser made rifles and other items as well.

On the other hand there was a famous bombing raid on the ball bearing works at Schwinhurst (Did I spell that any where near right?) during the war. The Allies never made a second raid on the assumption the Germans would disperse the manufacturing effort after the first raid. After the war the germans said a second raid would have finished off the manufacturing effort as by that time they didn't have the wherewithal to dispurse the plant after the raid.

I'd be willing to bet a close study of the war would reveal that general confusion and snafus on the part of one side did as much to protect various critical manufacturing sites as the security efforts on the part of the other side.

Security is sometimes for political reasons rather than technical ones. Witness the suppressed High Standard 22 the Soviets confiscated from Gary Powers, the U2 pilot, that has been on public display for the last 40 years or so in a Moscow Museum. To this day it is classified by the US Government, not for technical reasons, but for PC reasons, you cannot publicly admit to having such an item in the inventory.

BTW: It was a jim dandy job of suppressing a firearm with rubber snubbers in the action and the whole nine yards.

mauserk98k · 09-07-2005, 07:01 PM

I would not think that pistols were, "small potatoes" in WWII, especially for the Germans. I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that Germany was the most pistol intensive country during the war. They not only had to arm MG crews, officers and NCOs, but also the police and a great number of politicans, occupation forces, and the gestapo all standerdizied on the same weapons. Just a thought.

Navy · 09-07-2005, 08:04 PM

masuser98K,

Your major premise is correct; your minor premise, that they were all standardized is a grevious error. Read books, go to museums and attend major collector shows. You will quickly note that the III Reich used ANYTHING available from 1934 until 1945.

Tom A

mauserk98k · 09-07-2005, 08:34 PM

Tom, the wording WAS off in what I said. I do realize that they used a wide range of weapons. However, they hardly used as many Italian Beretta 38A(s) as they did MP38/40(s) Just as an example. I also know that certain captured weapons became popular with the soldiers such as the PPSh. (example)

Private purchase pocket pistols were also popular, and I know Browning HPs were used. etc... But I would think that most would agree that the P08, and the P38 made up the majority, and that pistols played a huge roll in Germany. That is all I was trying to say.

Roger S.

unspellable · 09-08-2005, 08:16 AM

While the Germans may have issued a lot of pistols, they still did not play a big part in the war effort. (WWI being famous as the handgun intensive war.) Think of it from the Allied air command view point. You're going to bomb ball bearing works, oil facilities, railroads, shipping, naval ports, airplane factories, anti-aircraft gun factories, and a host of other items before you start to worry about bombing a hand gun factory.

reich1900 · 09-12-2005, 09:33 PM

I think that their system of using the mostly three letter codes makes sense from an inventory stand point. Its much easier to write the codes rather than than the company name and address each time. A plus is it's great for collectors.
Bernie

08-23-2005, 02:10 PM	#1
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 767 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	Manufacturer's codes During the Nazi era it was the practice for German manufacturers to put a code mark on their military products rather than their name. In the early Nazi era this is understandable as an evasion of the Versailles treaty. But once Hitler was openly thumbing his nose at it, why keep up the pretense? Not much point during the war. For example the Allies knew where mauser was located and knew jolly well they were cranking out firearms. They probably had other fish to fry than bombing mauser.

09-08-2005, 08:16 AM	#7
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 767 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	small potatoes While the Germans may have issued a lot of pistols, they still did not play a big part in the war effort. (WWI being famous as the handgun intensive war.) Think of it from the Allied air command view point. You're going to bomb ball bearing works, oil facilities, railroads, shipping, naval ports, airplane factories, anti-aircraft gun factories, and a host of other items before you start to worry about bombing a hand gun factory.

08-23-2005, 03:12 PM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Hi, Well, Mauser was only one of thousands of contractors and subcontractors. With that amount of suppliers involved it makes sense to camoflage where they are located and what they are doing. A good example is the DWM site at Lubeck-Schlutup, which was disguised so well that it was invisible from the air and was never bombed. Would they have printed 'DWM Lubeck-Schlutup' all over the side or bottom of the product, it would give too much information away. Another example: Mauser was not working from one site, but from 3 seperate sites in Oberndorf and one in Berlin during the 1930s. The whole enterprise was to make it difficult for the outside world to interpret who did what, where and in what numbers while at the same time making it easier to interpret exactly the same thing within Germany. It would be interesting to see period allied reports on German rearming and arms facilities, though. Just to get a feeling about what was exactly known about German facilities in general.

08-23-2005, 05:10 PM	#3
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 767 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	I picked Mauser as an example because they were well known in Britain and the US before the war. But if Mauser had three plants going during the war, the Allies would not have know where two of them were, nor which made what. During WWI handguns played a fairly prominent role, but in WWII they were pretty small potatoes. I would think the Allies would not bother bombing a hand gun line. Of course Mauser made rifles and other items as well. On the other hand there was a famous bombing raid on the ball bearing works at Schwinhurst (Did I spell that any where near right?) during the war. The Allies never made a second raid on the assumption the Germans would disperse the manufacturing effort after the first raid. After the war the germans said a second raid would have finished off the manufacturing effort as by that time they didn't have the wherewithal to dispurse the plant after the raid. I'd be willing to bet a close study of the war would reveal that general confusion and snafus on the part of one side did as much to protect various critical manufacturing sites as the security efforts on the part of the other side. Security is sometimes for political reasons rather than technical ones. Witness the suppressed High Standard 22 the Soviets confiscated from Gary Powers, the U2 pilot, that has been on public display for the last 40 years or so in a Moscow Museum. To this day it is classified by the US Government, not for technical reasons, but for PC reasons, you cannot publicly admit to having such an item in the inventory. BTW: It was a jim dandy job of suppressing a firearm with rubber snubbers in the action and the whole nine yards.

09-07-2005, 07:01 PM	#4
mauserk98k New User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I would not think that pistols were, "small potatoes" in WWII, especially for the Germans. I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that Germany was the most pistol intensive country during the war. They not only had to arm MG crews, officers and NCOs, but also the police and a great number of politicans, occupation forces, and the gestapo all standerdizied on the same weapons. Just a thought.

09-07-2005, 08:04 PM	#5
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	masuser98K, Your major premise is correct; your minor premise, that they were all standardized is a grevious error. Read books, go to museums and attend major collector shows. You will quickly note that the III Reich used ANYTHING available from 1934 until 1945. Tom A

09-07-2005, 08:34 PM	#6
mauserk98k New User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom, the wording WAS off in what I said. I do realize that they used a wide range of weapons. However, they hardly used as many Italian Beretta 38A(s) as they did MP38/40(s) Just as an example. I also know that certain captured weapons became popular with the soldiers such as the PPSh. (example) Private purchase pocket pistols were also popular, and I know Browning HPs were used. etc... But I would think that most would agree that the P08, and the P38 made up the majority, and that pistols played a huge roll in Germany. That is all I was trying to say. Roger S.

09-12-2005, 09:33 PM	#8
reich1900 User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Long Island, N.Y. Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I think that their system of using the mostly three letter codes makes sense from an inventory stand point. Its much easier to write the codes rather than than the company name and address each time. A plus is it's great for collectors. Bernie