Finnish P08 - What year?

byf43 · 11-18-2005, 02:20 PM

I wonder if anyone here can shed some light on a P08 which doesn't have that many markings on it.

What I can tell:

It's marked with serial 277 no suffix letter. DWM on top. Magazine has wooden buttom, marked SA. Barrel is stamped with Tikka's maker mark. No doubt this P08 has served it's duty in Finland. A m/23 7.65mm that has been converted to 9mm (?). Blueing quite worn. Most likely original jugded on condition (strangely barrel is the worst). Apart from the two finnish parts everything else is matching numbers. On the trigger there's a small stamp which looks like a crown over the letter C or a badly stamped circle (hard to see even with magnifier)? Something is inside the C/circle. Impossible to identify, too small. Grips shells are wood with no markings inside.

Please can someone help finding out the history of such a P08 and what year it might be?

Dwight Gruber · 11-18-2005, 02:59 PM

Could you describe any/all other markings on the gun? Got pictures?

--Dwight

byf43 · 11-19-2005, 08:15 AM

Well the problem is that there aren't that many other marks.

I've found some rather scattered marks. An X, a V and a C on the frame hidden behind the grip shells. Just above the trigger hidden behind the "takedown plate" is a 4 and a P. The number 4 is also stamped near the barrel on the "slide" along with an & and two I's.

Inside the frame is an encircled N. To the right in the picture you can see 75 which is a serial stamp (?). That is odd since the serial is actually 277. It seems strange that this part has been replaced but none other (except for the Tikka barrel)?

byf43 · 11-19-2005, 08:19 AM

The "slide".

Yama · 11-20-2005, 06:07 AM

Hi!

I doubt it did service in Finland, i think it's is a DWM imported after the war to Finland and converted with a finnish competition barrel.

It's quite common to find P08's in Scandinavia with finnish competition barrels.

Lugerdoc · 11-20-2005, 12:00 PM

byf, I can't see the Tikka marking on your barrel in photo. Usually these replacements were 125mm (5") long vise the normal 100mm PO8 barrel. For an idea of present value see the current SOG FLYER or www.southernohiogun.com for several variations for sale. TH

some_finn · 11-20-2005, 01:14 PM

Hello, new member here.

Interesting that the first thing I read here should be so familiar to me.
Currently my only Parabellum is a shooter grade "mostly matching" m/23 that has been converted to 9mm using a Tikkakoski barrel.

For what it's worth, here's a pic of the Tikkakoski stamp. Didn't know the longer barrels are more common, mine is 10cm/4".

Mine doesn't have any SA stamps either so no telling when it has been converted. Shoots very well, though. I'm looking for a more collectible 7,65 one to go with it...

Pete Ebbink · 11-20-2005, 02:07 PM

Simo,

You might try this gun dealer in DE for a collector's piece...

http://www.collector-arms.de/index.php?content=kurz

byf43 · 11-20-2005, 03:28 PM

Same Tikka mark. On the upper side of the barrel. No SA marks except on the magazine.

Now if this is a "normal" German pistol imported to Finland after the war then why doesn't it have any German stamps on it? That's what confuses me, it has none of the typical marks?

Dwight Gruber · 11-21-2005, 02:42 AM

Mikkel,

There's not much to say from the info thus far. The holdopen is mismatch to the frame. The letters and symbols you describe are called "workers' marks", they are probably line inspection or completion stamps; there is no known index or "key" to their meaning. An odd notation, the circle-N stamp appears in the lug well of my 1917 LP-08, my 1917 Navy, -and- my Mauser 1936 S/42.

The figure on the trigger suggests it might have originated with an Erfurt.

Are there no serial numbers on any of the small parts?

--Dwight

byf43 · 11-21-2005, 10:28 AM

Thanks Dwight,
I suspected that the small marks were "worker" marks. What puzzles me is that there is no SA mark. If it's a post war import then at least there ought to be other marks i.e. Crown over N?

When did the finnish army start stamping SA marks on their equipment?

some_finn · 11-21-2005, 11:38 AM

I believe a lot of Parabellums were imported into Finland between the first and second world war, and were sold commercially to private individuals, for example civil guard members.
Also the Tikkakoski 9mm barrels were made in the 30's I believe, and I would think most of the converting done before WW2?

The idea of a lot of Parabellums being imported into Finland after WW2 sounds a bit strange to me, but I'm no expert so I'm not saying that's not true. Maybe this is common knowledge to more knowledgeable people? Would like to hear more if this is the case.

It was much easier for private individuals to purchase handguns before WW2 than after so I'm not sure why large numbers of Parabellums would have been imported.

My specimen is a typical commercial m/23 with all the normal German proof marks etc. and no SA property stamp. My assumption was that it was imported between the world wars, but what do I know... And as I wrote, of course no way to tell when it was converted.

Alsky · 11-25-2005, 02:40 PM

The Finnish Army started to use the [SA] stamp as their property marking around May of 1942. As with their rifles and other pieces of equipment not all of the Finnish hand guns received the [SA] stamp for what ever reason. I doubt that many Lugers were imported into Finalnd after the Wars.

byf43 · 11-26-2005, 06:46 AM

Alsky

Thanks for your comment. So it can in fact be a genuine finn 08.

some_finn · 11-29-2005, 11:39 AM

A discussion on a Finnish forum regarding the Tikkakoski barrels spurred me to ask:

Which are more common: Tikkakoski barrels without a serial number or with one?

The few guys taking part in the "poll" on the Finnish forum seem to have about 50/50 but would be nice to hear international views on the matter.

Alsky · 11-29-2005, 06:00 PM

some__finn I have sent you a PM message.

11-18-2005, 02:20 PM	#1
byf43 User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 69 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Finnish P08 - What year? I wonder if anyone here can shed some light on a P08 which doesn't have that many markings on it. What I can tell: It's marked with serial 277 no suffix letter. DWM on top. Magazine has wooden buttom, marked SA. Barrel is stamped with Tikka's maker mark. No doubt this P08 has served it's duty in Finland. A m/23 7.65mm that has been converted to 9mm (?). Blueing quite worn. Most likely original jugded on condition (strangely barrel is the worst). Apart from the two finnish parts everything else is matching numbers. On the trigger there's a small stamp which looks like a crown over the letter C or a badly stamped circle (hard to see even with magnifier)? Something is inside the C/circle. Impossible to identify, too small. Grips shells are wood with no markings inside. Please can someone help finding out the history of such a P08 and what year it might be?

11-19-2005, 08:15 AM	#3
byf43 User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 69 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well the problem is that there aren't that many other marks. I've found some rather scattered marks. An X, a V and a C on the frame hidden behind the grip shells. Just above the trigger hidden behind the "takedown plate" is a 4 and a P. The number 4 is also stamped near the barrel on the "slide" along with an & and two I's. Inside the frame is an encircled N. To the right in the picture you can see 75 which is a serial stamp (?). That is odd since the serial is actually 277. It seems strange that this part has been replaced but none other (except for the Tikka barrel)? Attached Thumbnails

11-19-2005, 08:19 AM	#4
byf43 User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 69 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The "slide". Attached Thumbnails

11-20-2005, 12:00 PM	#6
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	byf, I can't see the Tikka marking on your barrel in photo. Usually these replacements were 125mm (5") long vise the normal 100mm PO8 barrel. For an idea of present value see the current SOG FLYER or www.southernohiogun.com for several variations for sale. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-20-2005, 03:28 PM	#9
byf43 User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 69 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Same Tikka mark. On the upper side of the barrel. No SA marks except on the magazine. Now if this is a "normal" German pistol imported to Finland after the war then why doesn't it have any German stamps on it? That's what confuses me, it has none of the typical marks? Last edited by byf43; 10-05-2009 at 04:59 AM.

11-18-2005, 02:59 PM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Could you describe any/all other markings on the gun? Got pictures? --Dwight

11-20-2005, 06:07 AM	#5
Yama New User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi! I doubt it did service in Finland, i think it's is a DWM imported after the war to Finland and converted with a finnish competition barrel. It's quite common to find P08's in Scandinavia with finnish competition barrels.

11-20-2005, 01:14 PM	#7
some_finn User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello, new member here. Interesting that the first thing I read here should be so familiar to me. Currently my only Parabellum is a shooter grade "mostly matching" m/23 that has been converted to 9mm using a Tikkakoski barrel. For what it's worth, here's a pic of the Tikkakoski stamp. Didn't know the longer barrels are more common, mine is 10cm/4". Mine doesn't have any SA stamps either so no telling when it has been converted. Shoots very well, though. I'm looking for a more collectible 7,65 one to go with it...

11-20-2005, 02:07 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Simo, You might try this gun dealer in DE for a collector's piece... http://www.collector-arms.de/index.php?content=kurz

11-21-2005, 02:42 AM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Mikkel, There's not much to say from the info thus far. The holdopen is mismatch to the frame. The letters and symbols you describe are called "workers' marks", they are probably line inspection or completion stamps; there is no known index or "key" to their meaning. An odd notation, the circle-N stamp appears in the lug well of my 1917 LP-08, my 1917 Navy, -and- my Mauser 1936 S/42. The figure on the trigger suggests it might have originated with an Erfurt. Are there no serial numbers on any of the small parts? --Dwight

11-21-2005, 10:28 AM	#11
byf43 User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 69 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Dwight, I suspected that the small marks were "worker" marks. What puzzles me is that there is no SA mark. If it's a post war import then at least there ought to be other marks i.e. Crown over N? When did the finnish army start stamping SA marks on their equipment?

11-21-2005, 11:38 AM	#12
some_finn User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I believe a lot of Parabellums were imported into Finland between the first and second world war, and were sold commercially to private individuals, for example civil guard members. Also the Tikkakoski 9mm barrels were made in the 30's I believe, and I would think most of the converting done before WW2? The idea of a lot of Parabellums being imported into Finland after WW2 sounds a bit strange to me, but I'm no expert so I'm not saying that's not true. Maybe this is common knowledge to more knowledgeable people? Would like to hear more if this is the case. It was much easier for private individuals to purchase handguns before WW2 than after so I'm not sure why large numbers of Parabellums would have been imported. My specimen is a typical commercial m/23 with all the normal German proof marks etc. and no SA property stamp. My assumption was that it was imported between the world wars, but what do I know... And as I wrote, of course no way to tell when it was converted.

11-25-2005, 02:40 PM	#13
Alsky User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The Finnish Army started to use the [SA] stamp as their property marking around May of 1942. As with their rifles and other pieces of equipment not all of the Finnish hand guns received the [SA] stamp for what ever reason. I doubt that many Lugers were imported into Finalnd after the Wars.

11-26-2005, 06:46 AM	#14
byf43 User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 69 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Alsky Thanks for your comment. So it can in fact be a genuine finn 08. Last edited by byf43; 10-05-2009 at 05:00 AM.

11-29-2005, 11:39 AM	#15
some_finn User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A discussion on a Finnish forum regarding the Tikkakoski barrels spurred me to ask: Which are more common: Tikkakoski barrels without a serial number or with one? The few guys taking part in the "poll" on the Finnish forum seem to have about 50/50 but would be nice to hear international views on the matter.

11-29-2005, 06:00 PM	#16
Alsky User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	some__finn I have sent you a PM message.