1911 Erfurt

MauserJim · 09-04-2005, 05:11 PM

Can anyone tell me what the value of an all-matching 1911 Erfurt with 80% bluing and some slight pitting? Apears to be in Good+ to Very Good condition. All stampings are deep and clear, and has many crown-shaped proofs.

Thanks

MauserJim · 09-13-2005, 03:35 PM

I just heard back from the gunsmith I took my 1911 Erfurt P08 to and it seems that the pistol is chambered in .30. Could anyone tell me why this is so? Could it have been a foreign export P08 or what? Any ideas?

maddog350gt · 09-13-2005, 03:48 PM

Jim,

Original Erfurt's were only produced in 9 mm. Your gun could have been reworked after the war for commercial sales or it could have had the barrel replaced some time in it's life with a .30.

Is the barrel numbered to the gun? Does the gun have commercial proof marks (Crown over N). Does the barrel have a proof or rework stamp E/XX, etc. Pictures would help.

Thanks,
Bob M.

MauserJim · 09-13-2005, 04:07 PM

I will include the only two I have. Everything including the barrel matches, though none of the stampings are bright and shiny like I see on some of the ones here. There may have been a mistake, this is just what I heard over the phone from the guy. Many proof marks with crowns above them scattered about the gun. I will try to get some better pictures to post up here.

George Anderson · 09-13-2005, 04:20 PM

Jim, looking at your photos, which are not conclusive, I would bet that your pistol is a 9mm.

As to why .30 cal, after WWI, returning dough boys were enticed to send their trophies in to several mailorder houses to have barrels switched out. Some were switched for longer barrels but many were switched for .30 calibre which was likely a cheaper ammo at the time.

What I think I see as proof and serial number stampings into your barrel would lead me to think it just might be the original barrel. Be careful before loading and shooting.

MauserJim · 09-13-2005, 04:28 PM

Thanks George. The fellow doing the inspection has a Luger, and says he has dealt with them before, so I'm not sure why he would say that. Every piece on the pistol that I could find matches, including the barrel, so it makes me wonder what could have happened. Could he have made a mistake, or could something have been done post-war to resize the barrel? This makes me wonder though. If anyone knows of a gunsmith in the North Carolina area that has had experience with the P08 I would appreciate a name, I don't particularly want to blow the barrel off the family heirloom.

MauserJim · 09-13-2005, 04:36 PM

Oh, and just for clarification by .30 I mean 7.65 as well, .30 is just what the guy referred to it as.

Ron Smith · 09-13-2005, 04:41 PM

Just a thought, but the barrel could have been relined at some point. The barrel may have had a bad bore. This is/was a fairly common practice.

Ron

MauserJim · 09-13-2005, 05:12 PM

The gun has been in the family the past 40+ years, so any modifications were made prior to 1960.

Hugh · 09-13-2005, 06:24 PM

Very easy to establish the caliber, if a 9mm cartridge chambers, it is a 9mm gun. I.E. a 30 Luger cart. will chamber in a 9mm & a 30 cal gun. A 9mm cart. will not chamber in a 30 cal gun, only a 9mm!

MauserJim · 09-13-2005, 09:22 PM

Okay, new question then, assuming it was relined, how much does that hurt the value on it?

Dwight Gruber · 09-13-2005, 10:01 PM

MauserJim: a lot.

--Dwight

MauserJim · 09-13-2005, 10:42 PM

A relined pistol. . .can it be expected to perform like a regular luger, and will standard P08 magazines hold 7.65 cartridges?

Hugh · 09-13-2005, 11:28 PM

yes & yes, the 9mm is basically a "necked up" 7.65mm. The only difference in a Luger chambered for 7.65 & one chambered for the 9mm is the bbl, all other components are the same.

Dwight Gruber · 09-13-2005, 11:41 PM

Mauserjim,

Hugh is essentially correct, with one caveat: if the pistol really has been relined for .30, but the recoil spring has not been replaced to match, you can anticipate operating problems due to the .30 caliber cartridge being much less powerful than 9mm.

--Dwight

MauserJim · 09-14-2005, 10:20 AM

Okay, thanks guys. I will go up and see the gunsmith when he is finished looking it over and see what he thinks about this and whether the spring has been replaced or not.

MauserJim · 09-14-2005, 07:00 PM

Update. My grandfather has told me that he has, in fact put 9mm rounds through this pistol. . .does this dissprove the gunsmith's theory?

Dwight Gruber · 09-14-2005, 07:54 PM

Mauserjim,

Cut to the chase, make the test yourself. Get a 9mm round, drop it in the chamber. If it fits, it is 9mm. If it doesn't fit, its not.

--Dwight

MauserJim · 09-14-2005, 08:02 PM

To be honest with you, I don't know how to work it. I don't have a magazine with it (yet), so I was planning on waiting til the Gunsmith showed me how I could load it single-round when I pick it up. It's not in my possession right now as it was dropped off Tuesday.

MauserJim · 10-05-2005, 02:46 PM

I have an update for you guys, sorry to have you running in circles. The Erfurt 1911 is all-matching, with all original parts. The serial number is in the 3000 area. After the thorough cleaning, finish appears to be in the 80-85% range with a small ammount of pitting. The barrel is 9mm, not .30. Here's the hitch. The barrel had a substantial ammount of corosion in the center of the bore, giving it an hourglass shape. The gunsmith cleaned it as best he could, but told us it would not be a good idea to shoot. With all these things in mind, can anyone give me a value on it (Not selling it or considering selling it, would just like to know)?

09-04-2005, 05:11 PM	#1
MauserJim User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1911 Erfert Can anyone tell me what the value of an all-matching 1911 Erfurt with 80% bluing and some slight pitting? Apears to be in Good+ to Very Good condition. All stampings are deep and clear, and has many crown-shaped proofs. Thanks

09-13-2005, 03:35 PM	#2
MauserJim User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1911 Erfurt .30 I just heard back from the gunsmith I took my 1911 Erfurt P08 to and it seems that the pistol is chambered in .30. Could anyone tell me why this is so? Could it have been a foreign export P08 or what? Any ideas?

09-13-2005, 04:41 PM	#8
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Just a thought, but the barrel could have been relined at some point. The barrel may have had a bad bore. This is/was a fairly common practice. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

09-13-2005, 06:24 PM	#10
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Very easy to establish the caliber, if a 9mm cartridge chambers, it is a 9mm gun. I.E. a 30 Luger cart. will chamber in a 9mm & a 30 cal gun. A 9mm cart. will not chamber in a 30 cal gun, only a 9mm! __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

09-13-2005, 11:28 PM	#14
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	yes & yes, the 9mm is basically a "necked up" 7.65mm. The only difference in a Luger chambered for 7.65 & one chambered for the 9mm is the bbl, all other components are the same. __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

09-13-2005, 03:48 PM	#3
maddog350gt User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Washougal WA Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Jim, Original Erfurt's were only produced in 9 mm. Your gun could have been reworked after the war for commercial sales or it could have had the barrel replaced some time in it's life with a .30. Is the barrel numbered to the gun? Does the gun have commercial proof marks (Crown over N). Does the barrel have a proof or rework stamp E/XX, etc. Pictures would help. Thanks, Bob M.

09-13-2005, 04:07 PM	#4
MauserJim User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I will include the only two I have. Everything including the barrel matches, though none of the stampings are bright and shiny like I see on some of the ones here. There may have been a mistake, this is just what I heard over the phone from the guy. Many proof marks with crowns above them scattered about the gun. I will try to get some better pictures to post up here.

09-13-2005, 04:20 PM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Jim, looking at your photos, which are not conclusive, I would bet that your pistol is a 9mm. As to why .30 cal, after WWI, returning dough boys were enticed to send their trophies in to several mailorder houses to have barrels switched out. Some were switched for longer barrels but many were switched for .30 calibre which was likely a cheaper ammo at the time. What I think I see as proof and serial number stampings into your barrel would lead me to think it just might be the original barrel. Be careful before loading and shooting.

09-13-2005, 04:28 PM	#6
MauserJim User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks George. The fellow doing the inspection has a Luger, and says he has dealt with them before, so I'm not sure why he would say that. Every piece on the pistol that I could find matches, including the barrel, so it makes me wonder what could have happened. Could he have made a mistake, or could something have been done post-war to resize the barrel? This makes me wonder though. If anyone knows of a gunsmith in the North Carolina area that has had experience with the P08 I would appreciate a name, I don't particularly want to blow the barrel off the family heirloom.

09-13-2005, 04:36 PM	#7
MauserJim User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Oh, and just for clarification by .30 I mean 7.65 as well, .30 is just what the guy referred to it as.

09-13-2005, 05:12 PM	#9
MauserJim User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The gun has been in the family the past 40+ years, so any modifications were made prior to 1960.

09-13-2005, 09:22 PM	#11
MauserJim User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Okay, new question then, assuming it was relined, how much does that hurt the value on it?

09-13-2005, 10:01 PM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	MauserJim: a lot. --Dwight

09-13-2005, 10:42 PM	#13
MauserJim User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A relined pistol. . .can it be expected to perform like a regular luger, and will standard P08 magazines hold 7.65 cartridges?

09-13-2005, 11:41 PM	#15
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Mauserjim, Hugh is essentially correct, with one caveat: if the pistol really has been relined for .30, but the recoil spring has not been replaced to match, you can anticipate operating problems due to the .30 caliber cartridge being much less powerful than 9mm. --Dwight

09-14-2005, 10:20 AM	#16
MauserJim User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Okay, thanks guys. I will go up and see the gunsmith when he is finished looking it over and see what he thinks about this and whether the spring has been replaced or not.

09-14-2005, 07:00 PM	#17
MauserJim User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Update. My grandfather has told me that he has, in fact put 9mm rounds through this pistol. . .does this dissprove the gunsmith's theory?

09-14-2005, 07:54 PM	#18
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Mauserjim, Cut to the chase, make the test yourself. Get a 9mm round, drop it in the chamber. If it fits, it is 9mm. If it doesn't fit, its not. --Dwight

09-14-2005, 08:02 PM	#19
MauserJim User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	To be honest with you, I don't know how to work it. I don't have a magazine with it (yet), so I was planning on waiting til the Gunsmith showed me how I could load it single-round when I pick it up. It's not in my possession right now as it was dropped off Tuesday.

10-05-2005, 02:46 PM	#20
MauserJim User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Update, sorry for confusion I have an update for you guys, sorry to have you running in circles. The Erfurt 1911 is all-matching, with all original parts. The serial number is in the 3000 area. After the thorough cleaning, finish appears to be in the 80-85% range with a small ammount of pitting. The barrel is 9mm, not .30. Here's the hitch. The barrel had a substantial ammount of corosion in the center of the bore, giving it an hourglass shape. The gunsmith cleaned it as best he could, but told us it would not be a good idea to shoot. With all these things in mind, can anyone give me a value on it (Not selling it or considering selling it, would just like to know)?