1911 Erfurt

Russ · 07-24-2005, 10:37 PM

I looked at a 1911 dated Erfurt today. Number 154 with no suffix. It is unit marked with PL.7.77 It had a hold open added. The gun is not mine YET. But when I get it I will post photo's of it.

Russ

drbuster · 07-24-2005, 10:41 PM

Russ, will you let us folks get a chance to see it at the August Reno show?

Russ · 07-24-2005, 10:43 PM

Hi Doc
I am hopeing I might. I have a 1911A1 that the guy wants. So we will see.
Russ

Edward Tinker · 07-24-2005, 11:53 PM

hey Russ, good luck!

Ron Smith · 07-25-2005, 09:13 AM

Hey Russ,

Doing some research. Came up with: 7th Landwehr-Pioneer-Battalion, weapon #77, on the unit mark. Kind of scarce. Good luck on it!

I assumed that it was a police school mark when you told me about it on Friday. It could still be, but with the numbers I would lean toward the Imperial marking, without seeing it. Are there periods after the
P and L ?

Ron

Don M · 07-25-2005, 09:19 AM

Russ,

I hope you do get it and post photos. I'm particularly interested in the grip strap mark. While the "PL." conforms to the 1932 Prussian Manual 40a marking instructions for the Polizeischule fÃ?Â¼r LiebesÃ?Â¼bungen (Police School for Physical Training) in Spandau, I seriously doubt that it is from that institution. That school was for the training of sports instructors for the police, who were very into competitive sports and physical education. I doubt that they would have had a weapons inventory, much less one that had at least seven units and at least one with at least 77 pistols. I think this is from one of those non-Prussian "mystery" police units.

Ron,

You beat me to the punch but the above may support your Imperial Army ID as well as a possible non-Prussian police mark. I don't have access to my database now but know that there are other PL. or P.L. marks recorded. There was some speculation about the ID in the past but I can't recall right now just what it was.

Russ · 07-25-2005, 09:36 AM

Hi Ron
I t was good to see you last week.

No periods between the P and L.

Russ

Ron Smith · 07-25-2005, 09:37 AM

Don,

I do recall something about another confusing PL marked pistol. I believe it came up on Still's forum.

Russ,

I'm glad that you stopped by. Wish we could have gotten out to have some coffee and talked longer.

No periods eh? Well now, that could open up a whole new barrel of worms. As Don mentioned. This could get real messy.

Ron

Russ · 07-26-2005, 11:29 PM

Ron

I called the guy that has the pistol, and the unit mark is P.L.7.77
So what is that

Russ

Edward Tinker · 07-26-2005, 11:43 PM

plseven

must be a code for a frat at a collage

Ron Smith · 07-30-2005, 01:46 PM

Russ, With periods where they are, I'm pretty certain that it the Pioneer Batt. that I posted above.

Ron

MauserJim · 09-04-2005, 05:13 PM

I have a 1911 Erfurt like yours. On the right hand side of the gun just before the barrel starts is what look like two ceremonial C R followed by what might be a Prussian eagle. Any clues?

Edward Tinker · 09-04-2005, 05:42 PM

Does it look like this, top left;

If so, then it is an RC

MauserJim · 09-04-2005, 06:20 PM

Nope, it's an all-matching. They are two very ornamental letters C followed by R and there is what looks like a Prussian eagle. Could this be a unit or an officer's initials?

Edward Tinker · 09-04-2005, 07:23 PM

You'll have to show us, as it doesn't sound like anything I am used to.

An RC is common, if items added, then value usually drops, unless you got good provinance (although it could be almost anything??)

Ed

MauserJim · 09-04-2005, 08:59 PM

I don't know too much about Luger RC's. I do however know a bit about K98k Rc's. And with those the numbers hardly ever match except when they were electropenciled in. Am I wrong in assuming that because every serial number matches that isn't an RC? I'm pretty sure this pistol was a bringback from WWII, cause my grandad bought it sometime in the 50's.

Edward Tinker · 09-04-2005, 09:24 PM

I have a feeling we are talking apples and oranges, here is a discussion on RC crowns
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...4&highlight=RC

To me, an RC crown is a acceptance of a failed inspected part...

Once RC'd it was then accecpted and placed into service. So, all numbers would match.

There are lots of lugers that are unmatching, you have to check the breechblock, firing pin, etc., to be all matching.

ed

MauserJim · 09-04-2005, 10:09 PM

I'm not sure if I checked all of them, but I know I counted at least 8 serial numbers. I had it taken apart, and scoured it looking for the serials. I'm sorry if I got confused. When I hear RC I think Russian Capture, meaning the weapon was taken apart and reassemble with no regard to numbers. Thanks for the help.

Edward Tinker · 09-04-2005, 11:33 PM

Jim, that is why we are here and you are here, hell I make mistakes all the time, that is why we keep each other on track. And of course, everything depends on your own perception.

Ed

Ron Smith · 09-05-2005, 08:14 AM

Jim here's an RC mark on one of my Erfurts.

Ron

07-24-2005, 10:37 PM	#1
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	1911 Erfurt I looked at a 1911 dated Erfurt today. Number 154 with no suffix. It is unit marked with PL.7.77 It had a hold open added. The gun is not mine YET. But when I get it I will post photo's of it. Russ __________________ Livin the dream!!!!!!!!!!!

07-24-2005, 10:43 PM	#3
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Doc I am hopeing I might. I have a 1911A1 that the guy wants. So we will see. Russ __________________ Livin the dream!!!!!!!!!!!

07-25-2005, 09:13 AM	#5
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hey Russ, Doing some research. Came up with: 7th Landwehr-Pioneer-Battalion, weapon #77, on the unit mark. Kind of scarce. Good luck on it! I assumed that it was a police school mark when you told me about it on Friday. It could still be, but with the numbers I would lean toward the Imperial marking, without seeing it. Are there periods after the P and L ? Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

07-25-2005, 09:19 AM	#6
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Russ, I hope you do get it and post photos. I'm particularly interested in the grip strap mark. While the "PL." conforms to the 1932 Prussian Manual 40a marking instructions for the Polizeischule fÃ?Â¼r LiebesÃ?Â¼bungen (Police School for Physical Training) in Spandau, I seriously doubt that it is from that institution. That school was for the training of sports instructors for the police, who were very into competitive sports and physical education. I doubt that they would have had a weapons inventory, much less one that had at least seven units and at least one with at least 77 pistols. I think this is from one of those non-Prussian "mystery" police units. Ron, You beat me to the punch but the above may support your Imperial Army ID as well as a possible non-Prussian police mark. I don't have access to my database now but know that there are other PL. or P.L. marks recorded. There was some speculation about the ID in the past but I can't recall right now just what it was. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

07-25-2005, 09:37 AM	#8
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Don, I do recall something about another confusing PL marked pistol. I believe it came up on Still's forum. Russ, I'm glad that you stopped by. Wish we could have gotten out to have some coffee and talked longer. No periods eh? Well now, that could open up a whole new barrel of worms. As Don mentioned. This could get real messy. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

07-24-2005, 10:41 PM	#2
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Russ, will you let us folks get a chance to see it at the August Reno show?

07-24-2005, 11:53 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	hey Russ, good luck!

07-25-2005, 09:36 AM	#7
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Ron I t was good to see you last week. No periods between the P and L. Russ __________________ Livin the dream!!!!!!!!!!!

07-26-2005, 11:29 PM	#9
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	Ron I called the guy that has the pistol, and the unit mark is P.L.7.77 So what is that Russ __________________ Livin the dream!!!!!!!!!!!

07-26-2005, 11:43 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	plseven must be a code for a frat at a collage

07-30-2005, 01:46 PM	#11
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Russ, With periods where they are, I'm pretty certain that it the Pioneer Batt. that I posted above. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

09-04-2005, 05:13 PM	#12
MauserJim User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have a 1911 Erfurt like yours. On the right hand side of the gun just before the barrel starts is what look like two ceremonial C R followed by what might be a Prussian eagle. Any clues?

09-04-2005, 05:42 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Does it look like this, top left; If so, then it is an RC

09-04-2005, 06:20 PM	#14
MauserJim User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Nope, it's an all-matching. They are two very ornamental letters C followed by R and there is what looks like a Prussian eagle. Could this be a unit or an officer's initials?

09-04-2005, 07:23 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	You'll have to show us, as it doesn't sound like anything I am used to. An RC is common, if items added, then value usually drops, unless you got good provinance (although it could be almost anything??) Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-04-2005, 08:59 PM	#16
MauserJim User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I don't know too much about Luger RC's. I do however know a bit about K98k Rc's. And with those the numbers hardly ever match except when they were electropenciled in. Am I wrong in assuming that because every serial number matches that isn't an RC? I'm pretty sure this pistol was a bringback from WWII, cause my grandad bought it sometime in the 50's.

09-04-2005, 09:24 PM	#17
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	I have a feeling we are talking apples and oranges, here is a discussion on RC crowns http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...4&highlight=RC To me, an RC crown is a acceptance of a failed inspected part... Once RC'd it was then accecpted and placed into service. So, all numbers would match. There are lots of lugers that are unmatching, you have to check the breechblock, firing pin, etc., to be all matching. ed

09-04-2005, 10:09 PM	#18
MauserJim User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: NC Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm not sure if I checked all of them, but I know I counted at least 8 serial numbers. I had it taken apart, and scoured it looking for the serials. I'm sorry if I got confused. When I hear RC I think Russian Capture, meaning the weapon was taken apart and reassemble with no regard to numbers. Thanks for the help.

09-04-2005, 11:33 PM	#19
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Jim, that is why we are here and you are here, hell I make mistakes all the time, that is why we keep each other on track. And of course, everything depends on your own perception. Ed

09-05-2005, 08:14 AM	#20
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Jim here's an RC mark on one of my Erfurts. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...