resizing

P. Octo · 09-15-2015, 12:02 PM

I don't know if this should constitute a new thread, but here it goes.
1906 .30 Swiss. Some Italian friends gave me a few boxes of once fired cases among which was a box of Northwest, made in Italy. After reloading them, I tried to chamber one to make sure it would cycle ok but the slide didn't quite close on it: a gap of about 2mm (about 0.08") and I couldn't extract the chambered round. All cases had been run through the FL die. I knew that trying to disassemble a Luger with a chambered round could cause the gun to fire so I pushed the slide down and it seemed to click and I squeezed the trigger: no bang. I proceeded to disassemble the gun very carefully but there was still no way to pull the slide back. I put some Kroil down the upturned barrel to increase lubricity and ensure the powder would be soaked, pushed a rod through the barrel but still no movement and I wasn't going to risk hitting the rod!
In the end, I realized that the extractor could be lifted enough to clear the rim and I could slide the toggle assembly back and out, and gently kick the round out. Checking the neck diameter of the other cartridges, I found they were all way larger than the 0.331 (8.43mm) given in the books. The rest of the dimensions (case length & diameter) were correct.
I dropped a Fiocchi round and it slid in and out perfectly; did the same with another Northwest and the case jutted out slightly compared to the Fiocchi. I had to use my fingernail to extract it. So, after using the kinetic bullet puller, all the Northwest cases went into the bin.
I reloaded the Fiocchi and tested them: no problem chambering and extracting.
I thought I would share this experience with you.

DavidJayUden · 09-15-2015, 12:26 PM

Were these previously fired cases? Sometimes on rifle cases the necks have to be turned to thin the walls on brass, particularly after fire-forming them.
Also are you roll crimping the case into the cannelure, or using a tapered crimp?
dju

P. Octo · 09-15-2015, 12:52 PM

Yes, once fired. No roll crimping as the bullets I use have no canelure. I had put the cases through the FL die. No taper crimping to speak of: the seating die is set to just 'straighten' the rim of the neck; if I pull the bullet out, there are no mark on it.
I am a Bench Rest shooter so pretty familiar with neck turning but never thought it could apply to the .30 parabellum cases. As stated, I have never had a problem with the Fiochi cases.
Thanks for your post.

DavidJayUden · 09-15-2015, 02:18 PM

It would be interesting to check the outer neck diameter of the NW re-loaded rounds against that of factory Fiochi.
Also try some Prussian Blue on the case neck and bullet and gently drop them into the chamber until they start to stick. Remove and see where it is contacting.
Don't forget to monitor bullet seating depth as too long could be hitting the rifling.
dju

rhuff · 09-15-2015, 03:47 PM

One thing that comes to my mind, is whether or not your FL sizing die is setting the shoulder back far enough on the Northwest brass to allow it to chamber correctly. What brand of sizing die are you using?

If you take a fired piece of this Northwest brass and a piece of Fiocchi brass, and run each through the sizing die. Do not do anything else to the brass, and hand place each piece of brass into the chamber. Are they chambering to the same depth? If not, it could be the die. Fiocchi 30 luger brass has the shoulder set back a fair amount in new ammo. It will fire form, but if the chamber is up to spec, not that much to the shoulder. Just a thought.

noylj · 09-16-2015, 12:14 AM

IN 90% of cases, a COL too long will jam on the feed ramp and a COL too short will have the round "jump up" and jam at the top of the barrel.
For any feeding problem, I always look to the magazine first and at the magazine lips first regarding the magazine.
Don't see a "plunk" test being of much use if the rounds aren't even entering the chamber.

P. Octo · 09-16-2015, 02:32 AM

Thank you all. Will do the Prussian blue test. OAL is correct. I use RCBS. Here is what I measured:

New Fiochi case: 0.640

Fired Fiocchi (in my Luger): 0.665"
After FL: 0.661"

Fired NW after FL:0.657"

When I did the comparison between NW and Fiochi, both were once fired and reloaded once before I dropped them Inside the chamber. Actually, I am of a mind to do what I do to all my BR barrels: take a chamber cast.

Noylj: This is not a magazine issue. So far, my 2 magazines have performed flawlessly; it's a cartridge, of one manufacturer, that sticks in the chamber and cannot be manually extracted.

rhuff · 09-16-2015, 05:05 PM

Can you measure the shoulder to base length on each piece of brass. If I read the OP correctly, you were given the NW brass and have no idea what chamber(as to it specs) this brass was fired in. If the NW brass was fired in a very "generous/out of spec" chamber, the fire forming of the shoulder could be causing you a problem.

I own/use an RCBS 30 Luger sizing die, but my die would not set the shoulder back far enough to give me the headspacing that I wanted/needed in some of my 30 luger handguns.

I chucked the sizing die up into a lathe and removed .015-.017in. off of the base of the die. Added a small radius to the inside edge of the base. This "tuning" was enough to get the shoulder of the 30 luger brass(I load many different manufacturers brands of 30 luger brass) to set back to allow 100% chambering in all of my 30 luger barrels.

I have zero experience with your NW brass, and have never even seen a piece of it, so I am sort of walking blind here.

DavidJayUden · 09-16-2015, 09:34 PM

You could load a bullet into a NW case without primer or powder, then tightly close the toggle or completely chamber the round and use a dowel to drive it out. That should show the high spots.
dju

P. Octo · 09-17-2015, 05:39 AM

Thanks for your input.
The measures I posted were head to mid-shoulder. I have had no problem whatsoever previously when reloading Fiocchi cases so am quite happy with the RCBS I use.
I'll do the Prussian blue test but I won't force a NW case in the chamber again. I agree, and assume, that they were fired in a much more 'generous' chamber than mine, hence my intention to proceed with a chamber cast.
Being quite busy for the next 2 or 3 days, I'll have to be patient before doing it.

P. Octo · 09-20-2015, 03:50 AM

Done the chamber cast: everything is ok, which means the NW neck dimension were oversize, that is, in the box I was given.
I brought it to the range yesterday and gave it to a member who's had more experience than I with .30 Luger so that he can check it on his own.

ithacaartist · 09-20-2015, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P. Octo

Done the chamber cast: everything is ok, which means the NW neck dimension were oversize, that is, in the box I was given.
I brought it to the range yesterday and gave it to a member who's had more experience than I with .30 Luger so that he can check it on his own.

I'd be interested to hear whether the original profile/dimensions of this brass can be re-established.

P. Octo · 09-21-2015, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

I'd be interested to hear whether the original profile/dimensions of this brass can be re-established.

I'll try and get some cases back but remember, they've been fired once (at least) and I have resized them.
From memory, the neck of a loaded cartridge measured 8.48mm (0.334).

mrerick · 09-21-2015, 10:24 AM

I'm sure you all have the SAAMI specification for the .30 Luger...

Of course, this wasn't defined when the Luger was made. Initially it was a proprietary cartridge by DWM. Others made it eventually. Very early drawings from the 1910 Kynoch / Eley offering are on page 1469 of Sturgess (red edition).

The SAAMI specs are a little more forgiving than the Eley drawing. The case length on the SAAMI spec is a max of .850 inches tolerance minus .02 inches, while the Eley drawing shows a range of .840 to .850. After the first firing and resizing, it is likely necessary to trim the cartridge case back to this case length.

Remember that the case headspaces on the shoulder.

SAAMI shows a max of 1.175 inches for OAL with a round nose bullet.

The Eley is 1.165 to 1.175 inches OAL.

Interestingly, some of the photos in Sturgess show cartridges with a beveled case mouth...

I'm quite concerned because the case length you mentioned in post 7 would be appropriate for a straight walled .32 Auto cartridge case, and NOT a bottleneck .30 Luger (7.65mm Luger) cartridge case. The .32 Auto is also known as the 7.65mm Browning round. Do you have the right ammo for your gun?

P. Octo · 09-21-2015, 10:57 AM

Thanks for your post and the SAAMI link: it is much more detailed than what I had!
Re my post n°7: I was answering post 5. I am sorry I wasn't clear. I have both a .32 Auto and the .30 Luger and I didn't confuse the two.
So the Fired Fiocchi (in my Luger: 0.665") I mentionned is perfectly coherent with the data you provided in your link: 0.06618 to 0.6718. Likewise, all the other chamber measurements I made are within the parameters of the SAAMI table.

Sieger · 12-04-2015, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

I'm sure you all have the SAAMI specification for the .30 Luger...

Of course, this wasn't defined when the Luger was made. Initially it was a proprietary cartridge by DWM. Others made it eventually. Very early drawings from the 1910 Kynoch / Eley offering are on page 1469 of Sturgess (red edition).

The SAAMI specs are a little more forgiving than the Eley drawing. The case length on the SAAMI spec is a max of .850 inches tolerance minus .02 inches, while the Eley drawing shows a range of .840 to .850. After the first firing and resizing, it is likely necessary to trim the cartridge case back to this case length.

Remember that the case headspaces on the shoulder.

SAAMI shows a max of 1.175 inches for OAL with a round nose bullet.

The Eley is 1.165 to 1.175 inches OAL.

Interestingly, some of the photos in Sturgess show cartridges with a beveled case mouth...

I'm quite concerned because the case length you mentioned in post 7 would be appropriate for a straight walled .32 Auto cartridge case, and NOT a bottleneck .30 Luger (7.65mm Luger) cartridge case. The .32 Auto is also known as the 7.65mm Browning round. Do you have the right ammo for your gun?

Hi,

The DWM original OAL specs for the 7.65 Luger (round nose) were 1.173.

Sieger

John Sabato · 12-04-2015, 11:38 AM

Quote:

The SAAMI specs are a little more forgiving than the Eley drawing. The case length on the SAAMI spec is a max of .850 inches tolerance minus .02 inches, while the Eley drawing shows a range of .840 to .850. After the first firing and resizing, it is likely necessary to trim the cartridge case back to this case length.

I am late to this game as far as suggestions, but agree that the problem may have been the case length exceeded the chamber and the overly long neck ran into the rifling preventing full closure of the toggle train...

If you get the chance to rework some of the cases, trim them back to the same size as the ones that worked and see if they will then function.

P. Octo · 12-04-2015, 12:44 PM

Thanks for your post. I had checked the length (see my original post 09-15-2015). That was not the problem. Since I have given up the NW cases, the Fiocchi I continue to use work flawlessly. I reckon it was more a problem of neck thickness as suggested by DavidJayUden.

09-15-2015, 12:02 PM	#1
P. Octo User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Cannes, France Posts: 32 Thanks: 20 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	resizing I don't know if this should constitute a new thread, but here it goes. 1906 .30 Swiss. Some Italian friends gave me a few boxes of once fired cases among which was a box of Northwest, made in Italy. After reloading them, I tried to chamber one to make sure it would cycle ok but the slide didn't quite close on it: a gap of about 2mm (about 0.08") and I couldn't extract the chambered round. All cases had been run through the FL die. I knew that trying to disassemble a Luger with a chambered round could cause the gun to fire so I pushed the slide down and it seemed to click and I squeezed the trigger: no bang. I proceeded to disassemble the gun very carefully but there was still no way to pull the slide back. I put some Kroil down the upturned barrel to increase lubricity and ensure the powder would be soaked, pushed a rod through the barrel but still no movement and I wasn't going to risk hitting the rod! In the end, I realized that the extractor could be lifted enough to clear the rim and I could slide the toggle assembly back and out, and gently kick the round out. Checking the neck diameter of the other cartridges, I found they were all way larger than the 0.331 (8.43mm) given in the books. The rest of the dimensions (case length & diameter) were correct. I dropped a Fiocchi round and it slid in and out perfectly; did the same with another Northwest and the case jutted out slightly compared to the Fiocchi. I had to use my fingernail to extract it. So, after using the kinetic bullet puller, all the Northwest cases went into the bin. I reloaded the Fiocchi and tested them: no problem chambering and extracting. I thought I would share this experience with you.

09-21-2015, 10:24 AM	#14
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	I'm sure you all have the SAAMI specification for the .30 Luger... Of course, this wasn't defined when the Luger was made. Initially it was a proprietary cartridge by DWM. Others made it eventually. Very early drawings from the 1910 Kynoch / Eley offering are on page 1469 of Sturgess (red edition). The SAAMI specs are a little more forgiving than the Eley drawing. The case length on the SAAMI spec is a max of .850 inches tolerance minus .02 inches, while the Eley drawing shows a range of .840 to .850. After the first firing and resizing, it is likely necessary to trim the cartridge case back to this case length. Remember that the case headspaces on the shoulder. SAAMI shows a max of 1.175 inches for OAL with a round nose bullet. The Eley is 1.165 to 1.175 inches OAL. Interestingly, some of the photos in Sturgess show cartridges with a beveled case mouth... I'm quite concerned because the case length you mentioned in post 7 would be appropriate for a straight walled .32 Auto cartridge case, and NOT a bottleneck .30 Luger (7.65mm Luger) cartridge case. The .32 Auto is also known as the 7.65mm Browning round. Do you have the right ammo for your gun? __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

09-15-2015, 12:26 PM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Were these previously fired cases? Sometimes on rifle cases the necks have to be turned to thin the walls on brass, particularly after fire-forming them. Also are you roll crimping the case into the cannelure, or using a tapered crimp? dju

09-15-2015, 12:52 PM	#3
P. Octo User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Cannes, France Posts: 32 Thanks: 20 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Yes, once fired. No roll crimping as the bullets I use have no canelure. I had put the cases through the FL die. No taper crimping to speak of: the seating die is set to just 'straighten' the rim of the neck; if I pull the bullet out, there are no mark on it. I am a Bench Rest shooter so pretty familiar with neck turning but never thought it could apply to the .30 parabellum cases. As stated, I have never had a problem with the Fiochi cases. Thanks for your post.

09-15-2015, 02:18 PM	#4
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	It would be interesting to check the outer neck diameter of the NW re-loaded rounds against that of factory Fiochi. Also try some Prussian Blue on the case neck and bullet and gently drop them into the chamber until they start to stick. Remove and see where it is contacting. Don't forget to monitor bullet seating depth as too long could be hitting the rifling. dju

09-15-2015, 03:47 PM	#5
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,270 Thanks: 2,686 Thanked 958 Times in 704 Posts	One thing that comes to my mind, is whether or not your FL sizing die is setting the shoulder back far enough on the Northwest brass to allow it to chamber correctly. What brand of sizing die are you using? If you take a fired piece of this Northwest brass and a piece of Fiocchi brass, and run each through the sizing die. Do not do anything else to the brass, and hand place each piece of brass into the chamber. Are they chambering to the same depth? If not, it could be the die. Fiocchi 30 luger brass has the shoulder set back a fair amount in new ammo. It will fire form, but if the chamber is up to spec, not that much to the shoulder. Just a thought.

09-16-2015, 12:14 AM	#6
noylj User Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 41 Thanks: 0 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	IN 90% of cases, a COL too long will jam on the feed ramp and a COL too short will have the round "jump up" and jam at the top of the barrel. For any feeding problem, I always look to the magazine first and at the magazine lips first regarding the magazine. Don't see a "plunk" test being of much use if the rounds aren't even entering the chamber.

09-16-2015, 02:32 AM	#7
P. Octo User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Cannes, France Posts: 32 Thanks: 20 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Thank you all. Will do the Prussian blue test. OAL is correct. I use RCBS. Here is what I measured: New Fiochi case: 0.640 Fired Fiocchi (in my Luger): 0.665" After FL: 0.661" Fired NW after FL:0.657" When I did the comparison between NW and Fiochi, both were once fired and reloaded once before I dropped them Inside the chamber. Actually, I am of a mind to do what I do to all my BR barrels: take a chamber cast. Noylj: This is not a magazine issue. So far, my 2 magazines have performed flawlessly; it's a cartridge, of one manufacturer, that sticks in the chamber and cannot be manually extracted.

09-16-2015, 05:05 PM	#8
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,270 Thanks: 2,686 Thanked 958 Times in 704 Posts	Can you measure the shoulder to base length on each piece of brass. If I read the OP correctly, you were given the NW brass and have no idea what chamber(as to it specs) this brass was fired in. If the NW brass was fired in a very "generous/out of spec" chamber, the fire forming of the shoulder could be causing you a problem. I own/use an RCBS 30 Luger sizing die, but my die would not set the shoulder back far enough to give me the headspacing that I wanted/needed in some of my 30 luger handguns. I chucked the sizing die up into a lathe and removed .015-.017in. off of the base of the die. Added a small radius to the inside edge of the base. This "tuning" was enough to get the shoulder of the 30 luger brass(I load many different manufacturers brands of 30 luger brass) to set back to allow 100% chambering in all of my 30 luger barrels. I have zero experience with your NW brass, and have never even seen a piece of it, so I am sort of walking blind here.

09-16-2015, 09:34 PM	#9
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	You could load a bullet into a NW case without primer or powder, then tightly close the toggle or completely chamber the round and use a dowel to drive it out. That should show the high spots. dju

09-17-2015, 05:39 AM	#10
P. Octo User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Cannes, France Posts: 32 Thanks: 20 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks for your input. The measures I posted were head to mid-shoulder. I have had no problem whatsoever previously when reloading Fiocchi cases so am quite happy with the RCBS I use. I'll do the Prussian blue test but I won't force a NW case in the chamber again. I agree, and assume, that they were fired in a much more 'generous' chamber than mine, hence my intention to proceed with a chamber cast. Being quite busy for the next 2 or 3 days, I'll have to be patient before doing it.

09-20-2015, 03:50 AM	#11
P. Octo User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Cannes, France Posts: 32 Thanks: 20 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Done the chamber cast: everything is ok, which means the NW neck dimension were oversize, that is, in the box I was given. I brought it to the range yesterday and gave it to a member who's had more experience than I with .30 Luger so that he can check it on his own.

09-21-2015, 10:57 AM	#15
P. Octo User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Cannes, France Posts: 32 Thanks: 20 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks for your post and the SAAMI link: it is much more detailed than what I had! Re my post n°7: I was answering post 5. I am sorry I wasn't clear. I have both a .32 Auto and the .30 Luger and I didn't confuse the two. So the Fired Fiocchi (in my Luger: 0.665") I mentionned is perfectly coherent with the data you provided in your link: 0.06618 to 0.6718. Likewise, all the other chamber measurements I made are within the parameters of the SAAMI table.

12-04-2015, 12:44 PM	#18
P. Octo User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Cannes, France Posts: 32 Thanks: 20 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks for your post. I had checked the length (see my original post 09-15-2015). That was not the problem. Since I have given up the NW cases, the Fiocchi I continue to use work flawlessly. I reckon it was more a problem of neck thickness as suggested by DavidJayUden.