1911 Erfurt question...

Johnny Conroe · 05-07-2019, 05:26 PM

I recently picked up a 1911 at the LGS with some interesting unit markings. After digging around online and reading my Still book, I cannot quiet figure out what they mean. Can any of you guys shed some light on these markings, please?

Thanks in advance.

Link to pictures: https://photos.app.goo.gl/zkTnBweaYcvvCiVz7

Norme · 05-07-2019, 06:58 PM

Hi Johnny,
Welcome to the forum! I'm not familiar with that unit mark, but since your gun has seen Weimar period police service, as evident from the Sear and Magazine safeties (since disabled) it may well be a Police marking. I'm sure someone will be along soon who knows Police markings.
Norm

Johnny Conroe · 05-07-2019, 08:11 PM

Thank you, Norm.

I've always been a lurker more than anything else, but this new piece has left me puzzled.

Puzzled enough to create an account and start posting on the forums. Thanks for having me!

Cheers,

Austin

DonVoigt · 05-07-2019, 09:02 PM

Welcome Johnny.
You will get more folks to look at your pictures if you post them on the server here.
Many of us do not go to offsite hosting services for various reasons.

Eventually the pictures will likely disappear and any answers given will be meaningless without the pictures.

Johnny Conroe · 05-07-2019, 09:38 PM

Thanks for the suggestion, Don.

I'll post some pictures on here. Please let me know if they view-able on your end.

Here goes nothing:

Bill_in_VA · 05-08-2019, 06:44 AM

I’m interested in this too. I have a police 1911 Erfurt with the unit mark of O.N.1 that seems to be unknown.

Lugerdoc · 05-08-2019, 09:07 AM

The only grip strap marking that I know of starting with an O. xxx are Naval eastern (Ost) fleet. Perhaps some digging in Gortz & Walter's "The Navy Luger" can provide some answers. TH

DonVoigt · 05-08-2019, 09:26 AM

You fellows need to increase the size of your library!

O. Hi. = Ordnungpolizei of Hidesheim
The last number is the weapon number. See Don Maus' book, History Writ in Steel.

Johnny,
thanks for posting the pictures. That is a very good looking luger, very early Erfurt taken into Weimar police service. Note it has the sear safety, and the magazine safety which has been rendered inoperable. Both are key features of "police" lugers.

DonVoigt · 05-08-2019, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill_in_VA

I’m interested in this too. I have a police 1911 Erfurt with the unit mark of O.N.1 that seems to be unknown.

Bill,
that format screams "police" marking, especially since it must have police features if you call it a "police luger".

The O. is almost certainly also "Ordnungspolizei", and is in the 1922 marking style. I spent some time looking for a candidate for both "K" and "N" which are not firmly connected to cities or other jurisdictions.

I finally found some reference to "K" as likely being Kiel in some instances and Koeslin in others.

I have not found a known candidate for "N", but there are several
potential candidates- perhaps: Neisse or Neustadt ?

German police organizations underwent several nomenclature changes and the Ordnungspolizei was a short lived designation.

I can't attempt to explain, as there are several books written about the German police of that era and it is more than a little involved.

Maybe Don Maus will see this thread and chime in, he wrote the book! If you don't have a copy of History Writ in Steel- it is a great book and full of info on Germany in the era and markings found on pistols.

Norme · 05-08-2019, 09:44 AM

Hi Don,
Trust me, I have ALL the books, at least those written in English, but since I have no interest in Police Lugers I left the interpretation of that unit mark to someone who does.
Norm

Jasta2 · 05-08-2019, 12:13 PM

When you said LGS, were you referring to the Lakeland Gun Show in Fl.? If so, I was at that show and I think I saw your Luger. If it was, I think the dealer also had a Luger carbine. I did not ask the price. In any case, one thing I know now, though I am learning more about Lugers, I was way in over my head when it came to buying one at the show.Thought the prices were on the high side. I had $2,000 on me and I think the cheapest Luger I saw was $1,700 and I was not impressed by it. Most other looked to be $2,400 and up to $11,000. I hope at my next gun show, it would be nice to go with someone that truly knows Lugers and their values.

DavidJayUden · 05-08-2019, 12:34 PM

I took LGS to mean "local gun shop". Let's see which it is...
dju

DonVoigt · 05-08-2019, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Don,
Trust me, I have ALL the books, at least those written in English, but since I have no interest in Police Lugers I left the interpretation of that unit mark to someone who does.
Norm

That's ok Norm, I didn't mean to be mean.

I'm happy you don't have any interest in police lugers, less
competition that way.

After all, you are the Navy guy.

Johnny Conroe · 05-08-2019, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

You fellows need to increase the size of your library!

O. Hi. = Ordnungpolizei of Hidesheim
The last number is the weapon number. See Don Maus' book, History Writ in Steel.

Johnny,
thanks for posting the pictures. That is a very good looking luger, very early Erfurt taken into Weimar police service. Note it has the sear safety, and the magazine safety which has been rendered inoperable. Both are key features of "police" lugers.

I really appreciate the information and I also just snagged the last copy of that book on Prime!

Thanks for the help, sir!

Johnny Conroe · 05-08-2019, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

I took LGS to mean "local gun shop". Let's see which it is...
dju

I definitely meant local gun shop. My acronym use is more in line with the CMP forums, but I'm up for learning the ropes on here too!

MW2152 · 05-08-2019, 10:41 PM

I know it’s off topic but... I like that holster! It appears to be a heavily modified 1911 holster maybe?

Johnny Conroe · 05-08-2019, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MW2152

I know it’s off topic but... I like that holster! It appears to be a heavily modified 1911 holster maybe?

Likewise. It’s certainly an intriguing piece with some unique features. I too think it’s a heavily mod’ed 1911 or .38 Navy revolver holster. Surly it’s a vet bring back of some kind, but we’ll never know the provenance.

DavidJayUden · 05-09-2019, 08:26 AM

We see those from time to time, and as I recall the sort-of consensus seems to be that they are non-military issue and probably made after the war.
dju

DonVoigt · 05-09-2019, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MW2152

I know it’s off topic but... I like that holster! It appears to be a heavily modified 1911 holster maybe?

Not likely a modified 1911, but made for or bought by a GI.

Similar holsters for German guns were made before the war in Germany, so it may be one of those too. They were made for lugers and smaller automatics.

Similar ones have been posted several times.
Someone may have saved a link, or you might find them by searching for shoulder holster.

Johnny Conroe · 05-11-2019, 07:53 AM

My copy of History Writ in Steel was delivered yesterday. Wow! This book is incredible.

Thanks again for the suggestion.

05-07-2019, 05:26 PM	#1
Johnny Conroe User Join Date: May 2019 Location: 30° 18′ 58″ N, 95° 27′ 32″ W , TX Posts: 7 Thanks: 2 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	1911 Erfurt question... I recently picked up a 1911 at the LGS with some interesting unit markings. After digging around online and reading my Still book, I cannot quiet figure out what they mean. Can any of you guys shed some light on these markings, please? Thanks in advance. Link to pictures: https://photos.app.goo.gl/zkTnBweaYcvvCiVz7

05-07-2019, 09:02 PM	#4
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	Welcome Johnny. You will get more folks to look at your pictures if you post them on the server here. Many of us do not go to offsite hosting services for various reasons. Eventually the pictures will likely disappear and any answers given will be meaningless without the pictures. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

05-08-2019, 06:44 AM	#6
Bill_in_VA User Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 345 Thanks: 731 Thanked 470 Times in 178 Posts	I’m interested in this too. I have a police 1911 Erfurt with the unit mark of O.N.1 that seems to be unknown. __________________ John 8:32 reive (riːv) vb (Military) (intr) dialect Scot and Northern English to go on a plundering raid [variant of reave] ˈreiver n e.g., " Some view the Border Reivers as loveable rogues."

05-08-2019, 09:07 AM	#7
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	The only grip strap marking that I know of starting with an O. xxx are Naval eastern (Ost) fleet. Perhaps some digging in Gortz & Walter's "The Navy Luger" can provide some answers. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

05-08-2019, 09:26 AM	#8
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	You fellows need to increase the size of your library! O. Hi. = Ordnungpolizei of Hidesheim The last number is the weapon number. See Don Maus' book, History Writ in Steel. Johnny, thanks for posting the pictures. That is a very good looking luger, very early Erfurt taken into Weimar police service. Note it has the sear safety, and the magazine safety which has been rendered inoperable. Both are key features of "police" lugers. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

05-07-2019, 06:58 PM	#2
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Johnny, Welcome to the forum! I'm not familiar with that unit mark, but since your gun has seen Weimar period police service, as evident from the Sear and Magazine safeties (since disabled) it may well be a Police marking. I'm sure someone will be along soon who knows Police markings. Norm

05-07-2019, 08:11 PM	#3
Johnny Conroe User Join Date: May 2019 Location: 30° 18′ 58″ N, 95° 27′ 32″ W , TX Posts: 7 Thanks: 2 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Thank you, Norm. I've always been a lurker more than anything else, but this new piece has left me puzzled. Puzzled enough to create an account and start posting on the forums. Thanks for having me! Cheers, Austin

05-07-2019, 09:38 PM	#5
Johnny Conroe User Join Date: May 2019 Location: 30° 18′ 58″ N, 95° 27′ 32″ W , TX Posts: 7 Thanks: 2 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Thanks for the suggestion, Don. I'll post some pictures on here. Please let me know if they view-able on your end. Here goes nothing:

05-08-2019, 09:44 AM	#10
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Don, Trust me, I have ALL the books, at least those written in English, but since I have no interest in Police Lugers I left the interpretation of that unit mark to someone who does. Norm

05-08-2019, 12:13 PM	#11
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	When you said LGS, were you referring to the Lakeland Gun Show in Fl.? If so, I was at that show and I think I saw your Luger. If it was, I think the dealer also had a Luger carbine. I did not ask the price. In any case, one thing I know now, though I am learning more about Lugers, I was way in over my head when it came to buying one at the show.Thought the prices were on the high side. I had $2,000 on me and I think the cheapest Luger I saw was $1,700 and I was not impressed by it. Most other looked to be $2,400 and up to $11,000. I hope at my next gun show, it would be nice to go with someone that truly knows Lugers and their values.

05-08-2019, 12:34 PM	#12
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I took LGS to mean "local gun shop". Let's see which it is... dju

05-08-2019, 10:41 PM	#16
MW2152 User Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 50 Thanks: 11 Thanked 35 Times in 20 Posts	I know it’s off topic but... I like that holster! It appears to be a heavily modified 1911 holster maybe?

05-09-2019, 08:26 AM	#18
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	We see those from time to time, and as I recall the sort-of consensus seems to be that they are non-military issue and probably made after the war. dju

05-11-2019, 07:53 AM	#20
Johnny Conroe User Join Date: May 2019 Location: 30° 18′ 58″ N, 95° 27′ 32″ W , TX Posts: 7 Thanks: 2 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	My copy of History Writ in Steel was delivered yesterday. Wow! This book is incredible. Thanks again for the suggestion.