Cleanest Factory 115grain 9mm Ammo

[envino]

Hey Guys,

I wanted to see if anyone had recommendations for the cleanest firing 115grain 9mm ammo you've used.

I've read about Winchester's WinClean. Unfortunately it doesn't appear Winchester makes it anymore.

I've tried the HPR HyperClean and haven't been too impressed.

Thanks,

Jeff

[nukem556]

I don't understand the fixation on "clean" ammo...no modern ammunition is loaded with black powder! You'd have to fire hundreds and hundreds of rounds at one sitting with any modern smokeless ammo before fouling ever began to impair function.....and you DO clean your firearm after a day at the range, don't you? Hoppe's No.9 solvent is one of the greatest olfactory experiences in life!

[envino]

nukem556,

Thanks for your response.

My interest in the "clean" ammo is simply out of convenience.

For instance, yesterday I shot about 50 rounds of the HyperClean through my Luger and spent about 90 minutes cleaning the barrel alone before I could push a patch through the bore with no residue on it. This was followed up by another 90 minutes completing the field strip and clean of the Luger.

So, I guess my problem isn't that I'm not cleaning the Luger, rather I'm actually obsessively cleaning the Luger (as with all my firearms).

Thanks again,

Jeff

BTW I love the angry smily guy at the end of your post!

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by nukem556

... Hoppe's No.9 solvent is one of the greatest olfactory experiences in life!

Bob, I totally agree. #9 ranks right up there with Griffin Shoe Polish. Funny, how some can't stand the smell.

Smell info "stored" in the brain is amazing. One whiff of something can be like a time machine. Hoppes takes me back to the early 70s; for Griffin, it's the 50s! For me, Camel filters is 1968...

Jeff, that's the "evilgrin"!

[nukem556]

Jeff.... hope I didn't offend the new guy! More firearms have been damaged by overcleaning than ever by shooting, especially if cleaned from the muzzle. You'll never get even a perfect bore completely clean. Is your bore frosted or pitted? If so, you just gotta deal with it. Fouling in a pistol barrel affects accuracy much less than in a precision rifle barrel.

David...know what you mean brother! Smells seem to be the most evocative influence on human memory... I remember as a kid when my dad took me on the flightline when he was in the Air Force, and I stuck my head in the still cooling, tinkling afterburner nozzles of a just landed F4 Phantom..I've never forgotten that exotic smell !

[envino]

Thanks guys, I've got Hoppe's #9 on my to buy/use list.

This luger is my first blued firearm, so I was trying to avoid using a cleaner out of concern that it might hurt the bluing, or promote rust.

While we're on the subject. What oil do you guys recommend? I'm using Eezox right now, hoping that its good preservative characteristics would benefit an old blued weapon.

nukem, no offense taken! I just take gun cleaning seriously, prolly too seriously:-)

Thanks again!

Jeff

[nukem556]

Mobil 0W-40W motor oil .....a quart lasts for years....seriously...high shear resistance, no viscosity heat breakdown, great lubricity....no need for "gun" oil.

[Freischütz]

Based on what remained in my P7's gas system, Fiocchi is some of the cleanest burning ammo I've used.

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by nukem556

Mobil 0W-40W motor oil .....a quart lasts for years....seriously...high shear resistance, no viscosity heat breakdown, great lubricity....no need for "gun" oil.

And it has its own distinctive smell!

[envino]

nukem, motor oil? I might not jump on that idea right away. Although, I just learned that they used sperm oil on these guns originally, so why not motor oil too?

Freischütz, I'll definately look into Fiocchi ammo. I first heard about Fiocchi when I was debating whether to pick up a .30 or a 9mm Luger. I wanted to find out if there were any decent .30 ammo being made for the Luger these days, and read nothing but rave reviews about the Fiocchi.

Thanks as always,

Jeff

[sheepherder]

I think if you did find a nice clean-burning brand, you would look at it and say "That looks clean. I'll leave it until it gets dirty."...Whereas if you blew Bullseye out of it, you'd say "Wow! That looks like I've been funneling septic tank sewage through it...I better clean it!"...

[mrerick]

in the end, I think that comparing one smokeless powder based ammunition to another for cleanliness is subjective.

The cleanliness of ammunition relates to several things. The first is the primer used. This is where some of the more toxic chemicals come from since there are many variables in formulation of the explosive priming compound.

Next comes the powder itself. These can be single base or dual base, and incorporate a number of variables in chemistry and shape. The Wikipedia article on Smokeless Powder has some discussion of chemical formulation.

Finally, there is the surface of the bullet itself. Whether lubricated lead or some form of jacket or gliding metal, it will leave some residue.

The formula for loading factory ammunition isn't generally disclosed by manufacturers. It's fairly likely that someone like Winchester is going to use their own brand of bullets, primer and powder. A European ammunition manufacturer will probably source components in country and at least within the region.

In your posts, you mention you're cleaning your Luger barrel for 90 minutes, then field stripping and cleaning the rest of the gun. I can't imagine scrubbing things that long without doing damage at a microscopic level. It certainly will not improve the function, accuracy or preservation of your pistol.

Please understand that the salt bluing that Mauser used is a rather robust finish. Fe3O4 Magnetite (which is the black form of Iron Oxide that we call bluing) is a very hard and corrosion resistant molecule. While uniform if properly done, it doesn't 100% cover the surface of a firearm at a microscopic level.

in a 60 to 100 year old gun like your Luger, it's normal to see a mix of iron oxide types deep in the finish. In fact, you expect to see some Fe2O3 form of Iron Oxide (otherwise known as the red rust we're familiar with). If there isn't any, the gun is likely refinished.

If you do see active rusting areas (which eventually do lead to pitting) the rust should be removed. This is done using very fine steel wool that has been soaked in oil. Gentle and slow abrasion will remove the rust without damaging the bluing.

At a microscopic level, a gun barrel requires a certain level of lubrication to settle down. That includes some of the residue of the smokeless powder. This article has some good observations:

http://www.bordenrifles.com/Barrel_cleaning_edited.pdf

These people make some of the very best high precision rifle barrels, and also have some good advice:

http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Break_...246-wp2558.htm

I use a commercial spray preserving oil after cleaning my guns lightly with Hoppes No.9 after shooting sessions. There are even times that I just run a Hoppes bore snake through the barrel and wipe down the action. I use a Hoppes preserving gun oil in the barrel after cleaning.

Hope that this is helpful. It certainly is exciting to have a new Luger. Take your time and enjoy it!

[Ben M.]

steel wool mention should be 0000

[Wilhelm]

Originally Posted by envino

nukem556,

For instance, yesterday I shot about 50 rounds of the HyperClean through my Luger and spent about 90 minutes cleaning the barrel alone before I could push a patch through the bore with no residue on it. This was followed up by another 90 minutes completing the field strip and clean of the Luger.

So, I guess my problem isn't that I'm not cleaning the Luger, rather I'm actually obsessively cleaning the Luger!

You are also destroying it by over cleaning. I guarantee you that 90 minutes of barrel "cleaning" did more wear than 50 rounds of ammunition did. In the three hours it took you to "clean" one pistol, a normal and completely satisfactory cleaning could have been done about 18 pistols. I'm not bashing you....please don't think that. But it is a well known fact that over-cleaning is very detrimental to firearms.

[envino]

sheepherder: good point, maybe a little residue after shooting is a good thing, in that it will ensure that I clean the gun after the range.

mrerick: Thanks for the considerable information and links, I'll have to spend a few days following and reading all of the sources you've listed.

Ben: When would you recommend using 0000 steel wool on the Luger?

mrerick and Wilhelm: Yes, I agree that I'm spending too much time on the barrel. I had thought the only consequence was the extra time, but now that you mention that I may be causing the bore damage, I'll definitely re-evaluate my cleaning process.

Thanks,

Jeff

[Wilhelm]

A normal cleaning procedure for a pistol barrel (assuming that you aren't using corrosive ammo) is:

1. 1 patch soaked in Hoppes #9 once in and out.

2. Follow immediately with a soaked bristle brush in and out about 5 times.

3. Let sit for about three to five minutes.

4. Soaked patch in and out one time.

5. A second soaked patch in and out one time if necessary.

6. Third soaked patch in and out one time if necessary.....very, very rare.

7. One clean dry patch in and out two to three times.

8. Spray a little CLP down the barrel if you must. I never have in all my years of shooting and my bores all look just fine but some guys feel the need to do it.

9. You're done.

If you go back the next day and clean it again, you WILL get more funk out but it is neither needed nor recommended to do so. This constitutes over cleaning and is bad.

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by envino

Ben: When would you recommend using 0000 steel wool on the Luger?

Jeff

Marc pretty much answered that question:
"If you do see active rusting areas (which eventually do lead to pitting) the rust should be removed. This is done using very fine steel wool that has been soaked in oil. Gentle and slow abrasion will remove the rust without damaging the bluing."

Given how you clean the guns you already own I seriously doubt you will be needing any 0000 steel wool. However, if you acquire another piece for your collection and it has surface rust steel wool and oil is the way to go.

[envino]

Wilhelm, thanks for the bore cleaning guidance. This should save a bunch of cleaning time and wear on the barrel.

Jeff

[envino]

Ron, thanks for the clarification regarding the steel wool.

I guess my question is how to tell the difference between the Fe2O3 form of Iron Oxide (which Marc reported is expected in these firearms and not to try and remove with iron wool) and active rust (which should be addressed with steel wool).

Thanks,

Jeff

[mrerick]

The red oxide that you can see deep in the finish almost takes a magnifying glass and intense light to see in most cases.

When it aggregates and you can see red spots, particularly with the unaided eye, it may be in the process of starting pitting.

Marc