Unit Marked Imperial Loading Tool

P. Ristan · 08-19-2002, 12:16 PM

Hello!
In my collection I have a loading tool for luger marked with unit markings.

It's an imperial tool, it has an army inspection stamp, and it is unit marked "III.20."

If you look in "Imperial Lugers", page 87, figure 32, the inspection stamp is the same as the tool pictured in the middle of the top line.

The unit marking looks very similar to the markings on the tool pictured belov the tekst.

Any idea what unit this is?
Is it an army unit or a police unit?

Any ideas or hints???

Jan C Still · 08-19-2002, 01:27 PM

Ristan
According to official Imperial German Army rules and regulations for marking weapons your III.20 would signify Armeekorps III, command/stab, waffe nr. 20.

The practice of unit marking magazine bottoms and loading tools was required and then recinded prior to 1914.

Also, I recall some Weimar Era tools that may have similar markings.

Jan

P. Ristan · 08-20-2002, 05:04 AM

Thanks!!!
I'm quite sure the tool is imperial...
Always fun to know more aout things in the collection...

Garfield · 08-20-2002, 01:36 PM

The translation of the stamp on your tool. as given to you by J. Still, indicate that your tool was originally issued during the Imperial era.

Pete Ebbink · 08-20-2002, 07:24 PM

Hello Bill,

With the post a week or so ago about some guy that roams the gun shows trying to sell "custom" stamps, how can one easily tell if a marked take-down tool is real or just a recent-day fabrication ?

I am beginning to suspect that lots of stamped take-down tools are tossed in a rock-polishing, tumbling machine with some abrasives to "add" an aged look to the tool...

Pete <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Edward Tinker · 08-20-2002, 07:47 PM

Pete I was told not long ago, that generally the older ones are more robust and better material than the fakes coming out over the last several years?

However...

Garfield · 08-20-2002, 10:28 PM

Unfortunately, there isn't an "easy" wasy to distinquish a bogus loading tool from an original, assuming that the fake is done well. A person must become familiar with manner in which the tools were constructed and the appearance of the finish, if a finish were applied. If the tool was isssued in the white, then the patina one would expect to find on a vintage piece of metal of this type. Actually, loading tools are usually fairly well perserved. Perhaps, because they are so plentiful, the ones in poor condition were simply discarded. I have an Imperial with an Erfurt acceptance stamp that was reissued 3 times and is in very nice condition.

This, of course, means looking at a lot of tools. I have a drawer full along with, perhaps, a dozen or so, quality fakes. The latter make excellent reference. If you have a copy of Bender's Luger Holsters and Accesories of the 20th Century, you will find, therein, the measurements for an original loading tool along with some photos of some bogus tools that are made from heavier stock.

Stamps: Again, one should be familiar with the types of stamps used during the particuliar period from which the tool supposedly originated.
Problem with going by acceptance stamps is that, as has been pointed out, they are easy to come by and it doesn't take much skill to whack on a stamp. Keep in mind that there are a whole lot of genuine blank tools floating around. Unmarked tools, in the not to distant past, sold for for about $10, sometimes less. What with an E/135 going for $100 +, the incentive is obvious. There is a story, might be Urban Legend, that several years ago, crates of unmarked, unissued tools were imported in from one of the combloc countries along with jigs and stamps. Course, if no one can tell that something is a fake, I reckon it isn't. And, in this case, assuming the story is true, one could argue that they are original tools that had the acceptance stamp belatedly (not certain this is a word) applied. One story that I do know is true; seveal years ago, one of the well known boosters had a sale list of loading tools. There were over 20 different acceptance stamps abvailable. If I remember correctly, a person could buy one that was supposedly issued for use with the 45 cal Test Luger.

Point here is; just because it is a loading tool doesn't mean that you should not be knowledgeable on the subject . Get some HANDS ON experience and don't pay big money if you don't know from whence you come, or are going, for that matter.

Sorry, but nobody said that it was going to be easy.

Good Hunting.

Edward Tinker · 08-20-2002, 11:54 PM

My friend Garfield, excellent presentation of that subject.

08-19-2002, 12:16 PM	#1
P. Ristan User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Unit Marked Imperial Loading Tool Hello! In my collection I have a loading tool for luger marked with unit markings. It's an imperial tool, it has an army inspection stamp, and it is unit marked "III.20." If you look in "Imperial Lugers", page 87, figure 32, the inspection stamp is the same as the tool pictured in the middle of the top line. The unit marking looks very similar to the markings on the tool pictured belov the tekst. Any idea what unit this is? Is it an army unit or a police unit? Any ideas or hints???

08-20-2002, 07:47 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Pete I was told not long ago, that generally the older ones are more robust and better material than the fakes coming out over the last several years? However... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-20-2002, 11:54 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	My friend Garfield, excellent presentation of that subject. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-19-2002, 01:27 PM	#2
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Ristan According to official Imperial German Army rules and regulations for marking weapons your III.20 would signify Armeekorps III, command/stab, waffe nr. 20. The practice of unit marking magazine bottoms and loading tools was required and then recinded prior to 1914. Also, I recall some Weimar Era tools that may have similar markings. Jan

08-20-2002, 05:04 AM	#3
P. Ristan User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks!!! I'm quite sure the tool is imperial... Always fun to know more aout things in the collection...

08-20-2002, 01:36 PM	#4
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The translation of the stamp on your tool. as given to you by J. Still, indicate that your tool was originally issued during the Imperial era.

08-20-2002, 07:24 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Bill, With the post a week or so ago about some guy that roams the gun shows trying to sell "custom" stamps, how can one easily tell if a marked take-down tool is real or just a recent-day fabrication ? I am beginning to suspect that lots of stamped take-down tools are tossed in a rock-polishing, tumbling machine with some abrasives to "add" an aged look to the tool... Pete <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-20-2002, 10:28 PM	#7
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Unfortunately, there isn't an "easy" wasy to distinquish a bogus loading tool from an original, assuming that the fake is done well. A person must become familiar with manner in which the tools were constructed and the appearance of the finish, if a finish were applied. If the tool was isssued in the white, then the patina one would expect to find on a vintage piece of metal of this type. Actually, loading tools are usually fairly well perserved. Perhaps, because they are so plentiful, the ones in poor condition were simply discarded. I have an Imperial with an Erfurt acceptance stamp that was reissued 3 times and is in very nice condition. This, of course, means looking at a lot of tools. I have a drawer full along with, perhaps, a dozen or so, quality fakes. The latter make excellent reference. If you have a copy of Bender's Luger Holsters and Accesories of the 20th Century, you will find, therein, the measurements for an original loading tool along with some photos of some bogus tools that are made from heavier stock. Stamps: Again, one should be familiar with the types of stamps used during the particuliar period from which the tool supposedly originated. Problem with going by acceptance stamps is that, as has been pointed out, they are easy to come by and it doesn't take much skill to whack on a stamp. Keep in mind that there are a whole lot of genuine blank tools floating around. Unmarked tools, in the not to distant past, sold for for about $10, sometimes less. What with an E/135 going for $100 +, the incentive is obvious. There is a story, might be Urban Legend, that several years ago, crates of unmarked, unissued tools were imported in from one of the combloc countries along with jigs and stamps. Course, if no one can tell that something is a fake, I reckon it isn't. And, in this case, assuming the story is true, one could argue that they are original tools that had the acceptance stamp belatedly (not certain this is a word) applied. One story that I do know is true; seveal years ago, one of the well known boosters had a sale list of loading tools. There were over 20 different acceptance stamps abvailable. If I remember correctly, a person could buy one that was supposedly issued for use with the 45 cal Test Luger. Point here is; just because it is a loading tool doesn't mean that you should not be knowledgeable on the subject . Get some HANDS ON experience and don't pay big money if you don't know from whence you come, or are going, for that matter. Sorry, but nobody said that it was going to be easy. Good Hunting.