What makes a "Naval" Luger?

Jim McArthur · 03-19-2007, 08:05 PM

What makes a Naval Luger a naval Luger?

Well, uh, I reckon it was used by the Navy!

But what I mean is: were they always distinctively marked as being naval? Did they always have 6 inch barrels?

Jim

Ron Smith · 03-20-2007, 08:35 AM

Hi Jim,

Early original Navy Lugers have a 6" barrel, and as Tac says, a two postion Navy rear sight. They also have a large flanged toggle pin.

Weimar Navy (post WWI) Lugers are reworks of early Navys. Barrel shortened to, or replaced with a 4" and in most cases with a conventional rear toggle link, with standard rear sight replacing the 2 position sight , sometimes retaining the original Navy proof/accptance marks. Most often property marked with an N(Nordsee station) or O(Ostsee station) followed by a property number on the grip strap. May have an Eagle M with or without an Anchor on the grip strap.

Third Reich Navys may have the N and/or O property mark, and/or Eagle M. As WWII began and progressed, these marks were often not applied.

This is an Weimar reworked 1917 Navy. Note the Crown M Imperial Navy acceptance stamps on the receiver.

The property mark.

lew1 · 03-20-2007, 02:01 PM

Third Reich Navys have a barrel that is 4" and a conventional rear toggle link, with standard rear sight.

Luke · 03-20-2007, 02:33 PM

Jim,

If you are interested in owning a real Navy Luger, I would strongly suggest you do a lot of research, including the purchase of Jan Still's book, "Imperial Lugers." Also, do a search for Navy Lugers on this and the other forum, especially the articles on fake Navys . . . . and ask a lot of questions here. Almost all of the experts are members of this forum.

Because Navy Lugers are relatively expensive, some individuals have "created" these guns from parts; and many of these fakes are good enough to fool all but the most expert collectors.

After doing the research and reading the books, I finally realized that I might never know enough to buy an authentic gun; so I eventually bought mine from one of the most reputable dealers in the Luger business.

Luke

Navy · 03-20-2007, 07:01 PM

Jim,

Before you sign a check, please talk to me.

Tom A.

Dwight Gruber · 03-20-2007, 10:22 PM

Tom should confirm this, but iirc only 1908/1916/1917 Imperial Navy Lugers have the larger toggle pin flange. 1906 (and 1904, if you manage to encounter one!) have normal size flanges.

--Dwight

Big Norm · 03-21-2007, 09:34 PM

Personally, if it is described as a P-04 with the description that Tac supplied minus the wide flange on the 1904 and the 1906 models, then it is a navy Luger. Nazi Era lugers are P-08's (4 inch barrrels and fixed rear sights). If they happen to have navy markings, then they are P-08's that were used by navy personnel in some capacity, but they are not P-04's.
Big Norm

Jim McArthur · 03-24-2007, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tom A
Jim,

Before you sign a check, please talk to me.

Tom A.

I'll do that, Tom.

Right now I'm just trying to gather as much info as I can about Lugers, before making any purchases.

Jim

Jim McArthur · 03-24-2007, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Luke
Jim,

If you are interested in owning a real Navy Luger, I would strongly suggest you do a lot of research, including the purchase of Jan Still's book, "Imperial Lugers." Also, do a search for Navy Lugers on this and the other forum, especially the articles on fake Navys . . . . and ask a lot of questions here. Almost all of the experts are members of this forum.

Because Navy Lugers are relatively expensive, some individuals have "created" these guns from parts; and many of these fakes are good enough to fool all but the most expert collectors.

After doing the research and reading the books, I finally realized that I might never know enough to buy an authentic gun; so I evenutally bought mine from one of the most reputable dealers in the Luger business.

Luke

Sounds like excellent advice all around, Luke. I'm trying to get hold of a copy of Imperial Lugers: does anyone have any leads?

Jim

Big Norm · 03-25-2007, 12:33 AM

Jim,
there is excellent advise on this thread. There are some good books out there that contain information about the navy Luger. The best of the lot is Jan Stills. "Lugers at Random" by Kenyon is pretty good too. Suppliment that with a lot of past postings here on this forum. There's some good stuff here. Try to get out and see some navy (P-04's) Lugers. When you think you have it all, then take advantage of TomA's offer and call him, if you want. There is just too much for him to cover with just one phone call. There are just too many expensive fakes out there for you to get hung up on. You just have to get out there and physically see some too. There is ground work that you should do first before calling people.

Watch some of the internet sites. Doug Smiths web site for FGS is good and so is Simpsons. Both guys have pretty good lists of guns with pictures. Challenge yourself by trying to figure out why one gun sells for more money than the theoretically same gun on the next line of the same web site.

Enough preaching for now.
Big Norm

mills1950 · 06-02-2008, 10:29 PM

On Third Reich navy's---does anyone have a picture of the eagle M proof and where was it placed? Did all P08 manufacturers make a naval model.. Sorry for the dumb questions--new here

John Sabato · 06-02-2008, 11:17 PM

There are no "dumb" questions... welcome to the lugerforum! All WW1 Navy Lugers were made by DWM

Navy · 06-03-2008, 07:45 AM

Mills,

Maker: DWM: Made Navy Models, 6" bbl and a few 4"(Commercial production pressed into military service)
Maker: BKIW (Successor to DWM) Made Weimar Navy 4"
Maker: Erfurt No Navy guns
Maker: Vickers No Navy guns
Maker: Swiss waffenfabrik: No Navy Guns
Maker: Mauser Navy guns 4" from 1934-43
Maker: Waffenfabrik Mauser GMBh: Navy commerative guns, 6" bbl
Maker: Mitchell/Stoeger/Whoever Stainless 6" barrel Navy "wannabe"
Maker: Waffenfabrik American booster: many, many fake Imperials and Kriegsmarine guns...the most prevalent variants encountered in my 46 years of collecting.

Be damn careful lest you be making a tuition payment at Luger U.

Tom A

LugerVern · 06-03-2008, 10:39 AM

Oh, my favorite DWM Portuguese Navy Lugers

Vern

03-19-2007, 08:05 PM	#1
Jim McArthur User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: New Orleans LA Posts: 62 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What makes a "Naval" Luger? What makes a Naval Luger a naval Luger? Well, uh, I reckon it was used by the Navy! But what I mean is: were they always distinctively marked as being naval? Did they always have 6 inch barrels? Jim

03-20-2007, 08:35 AM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Jim, Early original Navy Lugers have a 6" barrel, and as Tac says, a two postion Navy rear sight. They also have a large flanged toggle pin. Weimar Navy (post WWI) Lugers are reworks of early Navys. Barrel shortened to, or replaced with a 4" and in most cases with a conventional rear toggle link, with standard rear sight replacing the 2 position sight , sometimes retaining the original Navy proof/accptance marks. Most often property marked with an N(Nordsee station) or O(Ostsee station) followed by a property number on the grip strap. May have an Eagle M with or without an Anchor on the grip strap. Third Reich Navys may have the N and/or O property mark, and/or Eagle M. As WWII began and progressed, these marks were often not applied. This is an Weimar reworked 1917 Navy. Note the Crown M Imperial Navy acceptance stamps on the receiver. The property mark. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-20-2007, 02:01 PM	#3
lew1 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,108 Thanks: 82 Thanked 204 Times in 112 Posts	Third Reich Navys have a barrel that is 4" and a conventional rear toggle link, with standard rear sight. __________________ charlie

03-20-2007, 02:33 PM	#4
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Jim, If you are interested in owning a real Navy Luger, I would strongly suggest you do a lot of research, including the purchase of Jan Still's book, "Imperial Lugers." Also, do a search for Navy Lugers on this and the other forum, especially the articles on fake Navys . . . . and ask a lot of questions here. Almost all of the experts are members of this forum. Because Navy Lugers are relatively expensive, some individuals have "created" these guns from parts; and many of these fakes are good enough to fool all but the most expert collectors. After doing the research and reading the books, I finally realized that I might never know enough to buy an authentic gun; so I eventually bought mine from one of the most reputable dealers in the Luger business. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

06-02-2008, 11:17 PM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	There are no "dumb" questions... welcome to the lugerforum! All WW1 Navy Lugers were made by DWM __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-20-2007, 07:01 PM	#5
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Jim, Before you sign a check, please talk to me. Tom A.

03-20-2007, 10:22 PM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Tom should confirm this, but iirc only 1908/1916/1917 Imperial Navy Lugers have the larger toggle pin flange. 1906 (and 1904, if you manage to encounter one!) have normal size flanges. --Dwight

03-21-2007, 09:34 PM	#7
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Personally, if it is described as a P-04 with the description that Tac supplied minus the wide flange on the 1904 and the 1906 models, then it is a navy Luger. Nazi Era lugers are P-08's (4 inch barrrels and fixed rear sights). If they happen to have navy markings, then they are P-08's that were used by navy personnel in some capacity, but they are not P-04's. Big Norm

03-25-2007, 12:33 AM	#10
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Jim, there is excellent advise on this thread. There are some good books out there that contain information about the navy Luger. The best of the lot is Jan Stills. "Lugers at Random" by Kenyon is pretty good too. Suppliment that with a lot of past postings here on this forum. There's some good stuff here. Try to get out and see some navy (P-04's) Lugers. When you think you have it all, then take advantage of TomA's offer and call him, if you want. There is just too much for him to cover with just one phone call. There are just too many expensive fakes out there for you to get hung up on. You just have to get out there and physically see some too. There is ground work that you should do first before calling people. Watch some of the internet sites. Doug Smiths web site for FGS is good and so is Simpsons. Both guys have pretty good lists of guns with pictures. Challenge yourself by trying to figure out why one gun sells for more money than the theoretically same gun on the next line of the same web site. Enough preaching for now. Big Norm

06-02-2008, 10:29 PM	#11
mills1950 New User Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	On Third Reich navy's---does anyone have a picture of the eagle M proof and where was it placed? Did all P08 manufacturers make a naval model.. Sorry for the dumb questions--new here

06-03-2008, 07:45 AM	#13
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Mills, Maker: DWM: Made Navy Models, 6" bbl and a few 4"(Commercial production pressed into military service) Maker: BKIW (Successor to DWM) Made Weimar Navy 4" Maker: Erfurt No Navy guns Maker: Vickers No Navy guns Maker: Swiss waffenfabrik: No Navy Guns Maker: Mauser Navy guns 4" from 1934-43 Maker: Waffenfabrik Mauser GMBh: Navy commerative guns, 6" bbl Maker: Mitchell/Stoeger/Whoever Stainless 6" barrel Navy "wannabe" Maker: Waffenfabrik American booster: many, many fake Imperials and Kriegsmarine guns...the most prevalent variants encountered in my 46 years of collecting. Be damn careful lest you be making a tuition payment at Luger U. Tom A

06-03-2008, 10:39 AM	#14
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Oh, my favorite DWM Portuguese Navy Lugers Vern