LugerForum Discussion Forums my profile | register | faq | search
upload photo | donate | calendar

Go Back   LugerForum Discussion Forums > Luger Discussion Forums > All P-08 Military Lugers

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 06-11-2023, 04:31 AM   #1
vesuvio
User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 121
Thanks: 1
Thanked 37 Times in 15 Posts
Default Opinion on this 1933 Luger

I see online different opinions on these Lugers. How to tell if original or not? I have seen these with Erfurth and DWM banners, 3 and four digits. Thanks
vesuvio is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-11-2023, 04:41 AM   #2
vesuvio
User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 121
Thanks: 1
Thanked 37 Times in 15 Posts
Default

Pics
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_9548.jpg
Views:	29
Size:	116.6 KB
ID:	86795  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_9547.jpg
Views:	29
Size:	137.0 KB
ID:	86796  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_9550.jpg
Views:	24
Size:	203.8 KB
ID:	86797  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_9549.jpg
Views:	30
Size:	203.6 KB
ID:	86798  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_9551.jpg
Views:	27
Size:	204.6 KB
ID:	86799  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_9552.jpg
Views:	28
Size:	91.9 KB
ID:	86800  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_9546.jpg
Views:	20
Size:	105.2 KB
ID:	86801  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_9624.jpg
Views:	26
Size:	84.7 KB
ID:	86802  

vesuvio is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-11-2023, 04:41 AM   #3
vesuvio
User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 121
Thanks: 1
Thanked 37 Times in 15 Posts
Default

Are the markings in the last picture correct?
vesuvio is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-11-2023, 10:29 AM   #4
hayhugh
User
 
hayhugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Florida/Penna
Posts: 881
Thanks: 836
Thanked 506 Times in 269 Posts
Default

Some 4"s are closed and some are open....
hayhugh is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-11-2023, 12:13 PM   #5
mrerick
Super Moderator - Patron
LugerForum
Life Patron
 
mrerick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA
Posts: 3,900
Thanks: 1,366
Thanked 3,093 Times in 1,503 Posts
Default

The Imperial Erfurt Arsenal was dismantled after WW-I in 1918 and it's tooling and machines were sent to Simson & Company in Suhl where they began Luger production in 1924-1925. They produced Lugers on this tooling until the Nazi government took over the Jewish owned company and relocated it's Luger production assets to Krieghoff.

Production of a Luger by the Erfurt Imperial arsenal in 1933 is not possible. No. It is not an original Erfurt Luger made in 1933.

It does look like it could be mostly an Erfurt Luger. The receiver may have been replaced, and the frame front shaved and renumbered (it looks like the receiver may be proud of the frame). Internal factory inspection markings could help identify the frame and receiver parts.

Please see our FAQ document for details.

It may have been rebuilt in some kind of field or arsenal operation and marked in this way at that point. Some members here may comment on rebuild operations that were supposed to be active in concentration camps, which this piece may be marked to indicate. Whether that is authentic or not I do not know.
__________________
Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum -
- Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.
mrerick is offline   Reply With Quote
The following 3 members says Thank You to mrerick for your post:
Unread 06-11-2023, 12:23 PM   #6
Doubs
User
 
Doubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Byron, Georgia
Posts: 1,662
Thanks: 761
Thanked 1,582 Times in 516 Posts
Default

If I'm reading Gortz & Sturgess' book correctly, you have a Luger that was newly manufactured using both new and used parts by the repair facility in Kassel, Germany, in 1933 before the Nazis came to power. The Lugers were made for the German Army and completely refinished to be as new. They apparently were serial numbered in their own serial range.

Following WW!, the German Army established Ordnance Depots called "Heeres-Zeugamter" abbreviated "H. Za" and also subsidiary repair facilities which collectively were termed "Feldzengdienstellen" or Ordnance Headquarters. The facility in Kassel was identified by the letters "KL".

So what you have is a "newly made" Luger using a WW1 Erfurt frame and toggle train and a DWM receiver that was originally on an Artillery Luger. It has a new barrel. The original date on the receiver and the original Erfurt serial number on the frame were scrubbed. New serial numbers were then stamped on the parts needing them to make an all matching gun and the "KL 1933" stamped over the chamber.

It's a rather unique Luger as the number of Lugers made at Kassel would not be great. A nice find.
Doubs is offline   Reply With Quote
The following 6 members says Thank You to Doubs for your post:
Unread 06-11-2023, 12:28 PM   #7
Karl
Lifer - Twice Over
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
Karl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Savannah
Posts: 510
Thanks: 0
Thanked 230 Times in 107 Posts
Default

Front of frame appears to have been ground down for new serial number (note that front of receiver is proud of the frame). No photo of back of grip but stock lug missing, either ground off or an earlier frame. A sharper view of proof marks on side of receiver might provide true date of its manufacture. I do not see a serial number on barrel.

KFS
Karl is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-11-2023, 10:21 PM   #8
vesuvio
User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 121
Thanks: 1
Thanked 37 Times in 15 Posts
Default

Here few close ups
vesuvio is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-11-2023, 10:34 PM   #9
vesuvio
User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 121
Thanks: 1
Thanked 37 Times in 15 Posts
Default

Pics
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_9634.jpg
Views:	22
Size:	125.9 KB
ID:	86810  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_9636.jpg
Views:	25
Size:	125.9 KB
ID:	86811  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_9631.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	154.6 KB
ID:	86812  

vesuvio is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to vesuvio for your post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1998 - 2023, Lugerforum.com