1921 Weimar Army Luger

whatthecrunchyo · 07-03-2011, 12:14 AM

Can someone give me some information on this Luger? I am finding it hard to put all of the information together. I am looking for a unit history, how rare it is, and a price range for it. All matching except for the magazine, which is Nazi marked. It has 90-95% original bluing. Looks like it has some holster wear. Thank you for any help you can give on the history of this piece!

MFC · 07-03-2011, 01:01 AM

Hi Jordan,
Welcome to the forum. I beleive the 1921 stamp is a property mark, not a date. Most property marks were 1920. They were hand stamped. Dates were stamped using a roll die. The 5 digit S# is commercial. I beleive it was pulled from commercial production and diverted to the military. The Weimar acceptance, military style numbering, and the 1921 added at that time. Commercials have hidden #'s and a blank chamber, and of course no military proofs.
A very unusual Luger... Thanks for posting.

Edward Tinker · 07-03-2011, 04:35 AM

Welcome to the forum.

Mike, not to disagree, but the 1921 would be a date stamp, only the 1920 was a property stamp, and the acceptance and proofs on the right are consistent with a 1921. Like Mike said, it is a 5 digit commercial that was then placed into military service.

The unit marking is a Weimar one, as Mike said

In addition the rear number is likely a unit rack number, that is the common belief and one I believe is true.

Value if all matching is about $800-$1000? Perhaps more if someone was looking for this marking, but its condition is not pristine (nice, but not pristine).

Ed

whatthecrunchyo · 07-03-2011, 09:44 AM

Thanks fellas for the information. I have some strange rub marks and what looks like some nicks that are on the middle of the barrel. You can see them in the first picture and they are on both sides of the barrel. Any idea what this may have been? Someone told me it was where someone tried attaching a silencer and I thought that that was pretty far-fetched.

George Anderson · 07-03-2011, 11:24 AM

Jordan, as has been stated above it started life as a commercial that was subsequently diverted to military use. You will quite possibly find that both the side plate and take-down lever are also numbered on their bottums in the commercial fashion.

The grip strap marking indicates that the pistol was the 23rd weapon of the First Battalion staff of the 18th Infantry Regiment of the Reichswehr. The additional marking on the back of the frame is also the weapon number. Numbering in such nonstandard locations is referred to as Weimar army Provisional marking and would have been placed there prior to the 1922 Reichswehr Directive on unit markings. The grip strap marking would have come later.

whatthecrunchyo · 07-03-2011, 09:35 PM

Thanks George, I was under the impression that this was a somewhat rare and sought after pistol relatively speaking since there were only 1,500 allowed by the Treaty of Versailles (or is that even correct?!). Is this the case? I'm hoping that I didn't make a stupid buy!

Edward Tinker · 07-04-2011, 02:50 AM

No, that is not correct about the numbers and/or the Versailles Treaty.

DWM was limited in what they could make, but you find many 1921 army and police lugers.

It depends on how much you paid on whether you over-paid. No offense meant, but sometimes its best to study up before purchasing.

I have made many too early buys (i.e. it will be worth what I paid in a few years, but right now its a bit high

)

Ed

MFC · 07-04-2011, 02:58 AM

Ed,
Please disagree with me whenever needed. Any info that is wrong should be corrected.
I remember reading posts about arsenals mistakenly adding 1921, instead of 1920 as a property mark. I don't remember seeing another commercial that had a date added to the chamber, which is why I thought it was a property mark. I agree, it is a date. It's very straight and centered, unlike most property marks.

whatthecrunchyo · 07-04-2011, 09:40 AM

No offense taken, I've been known to "pull the trigger" on things a little prematurely. Luckily for us that buy Lugers (this isn't my first), the price will eventually come around. That's my selling point to my wife...that it's an "investment" :-P

Lugerdoc · 07-04-2011, 12:07 PM

Mike, I must disagee with most of the earlier posters, since I believe that this waa never commerical production. I note the the first digit (#9) has been added to the left receiver, which in fact was made as a standard 4 digit 1921 dated military, with the proper acceptance stamps on the right receiver. This is also verified by the Weimar military unit ID on the front grip strap and rack # on the rear of the frame. The only reason that I can think of why the serial number might have been changed, is that it was the same as another luger alreary in that unit's invertory, although probably and earlier date. It would appear that some unit armorers were no better than our current police forces, in not using the date & toggle code as part of a PO8's identification. TH

Lugerdoc · 07-04-2011, 12:28 PM

After a second look, the blue on the barrel doesn't match the blue on the receiver and the small flange looks a bit odd. This leads me to believe (without seeing any barrel marking) that the odd wear on the middle of the barrel could have come from a barrel change. TH

whatthecrunchyo · 07-04-2011, 02:01 PM

Is there a way to tell that the barrel was changed? The bottom of the barrel says 85516 which matches the numbers on the rest of the pistol. Under that is 88.

George Anderson · 07-04-2011, 02:56 PM

Jordan, are the side plate and take-down lever numbered on the bottum?

whatthecrunchyo · 07-04-2011, 04:35 PM

Yes, they are both number 16, the same number that is on the side.

whatthecrunchyo · 07-04-2011, 04:39 PM

I just looked at the "88" on the barrel and it looks like there are actually three 8s, however they look more like 3 circles on top of each other, similar to a stoplight.

MFC · 07-04-2011, 05:01 PM

Jordan,
The "88" stamp is probably 8,83. It is the bore measured from land to land in millimeters. The die bounced and caused a double or ghost image.

George Anderson · 07-04-2011, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatthecrunchyo

Yes, they are both number 16, the same number that is on the side.

That confirms that the pistol started out as a Luger that was intended for the commercial market. When pulled by the factory for military sales I believe the 7.65 mm barrel was changed out for a 9 mm. This would have also been the point at which military proof and acceptance stamps were executed, additional numbering added and PERHAPS the 1921 added. I am not as certain about the 1921 date stamp but it would make sense.

whatthecrunchyo · 07-04-2011, 05:26 PM

George, so would you say that this is 9MM or .30cal?

Lugerdoc · 07-04-2011, 05:28 PM

I'm still not convinced that it was ever a commerical 5 digit luger. The serial on the barrel and frame appear to be hand stamped as the digits are not properly alined. Also, where are the normal commerical proof marks on the barrel and receiver? These normally would not be removed when appropriated by the military. I've had several c/n proofed commerical lugers, later rebarrelled and numbered in the military fashion, that retained their C/N proofing on the receiver and commerical serialization on the TD lever and side plate. TH

lugerholsterrepair · 07-04-2011, 05:40 PM

I'm still not convinced that it was ever a commerical 5 digit luger. The serial on the barrel and frame appear to be hand stamped as the digits are not properly alined. Also, where are the normal commerical proof marks on the barrel and receiver? These normally would not be removed when appropriated by the military.

Tom, Is it possible the pistol was diverted to the military line after serial numbering but before Crown N proofing?
That might account for the 5 digit serial and no Crown N proofs. Also the hidden serial numbers almost make it a commercial without doubt?

Also.. even if a commercial pistol were taken by the military..isn't it unusual to see crown N proofs AND military proofs along the right side?

07-03-2011, 12:14 AM	#1
whatthecrunchyo User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 22 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	1921 Weimar Army Luger Can someone give me some information on this Luger? I am finding it hard to put all of the information together. I am looking for a unit history, how rare it is, and a price range for it. All matching except for the magazine, which is Nazi marked. It has 90-95% original bluing. Looks like it has some holster wear. Thank you for any help you can give on the history of this piece!

07-03-2011, 01:01 AM	#2
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Hi Jordan, Welcome to the forum. I beleive the 1921 stamp is a property mark, not a date. Most property marks were 1920. They were hand stamped. Dates were stamped using a roll die. The 5 digit S# is commercial. I beleive it was pulled from commercial production and diverted to the military. The Weimar acceptance, military style numbering, and the 1921 added at that time. Commercials have hidden #'s and a blank chamber, and of course no military proofs. A very unusual Luger... Thanks for posting. __________________ Mike C.

07-03-2011, 04:35 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,912 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Welcome to the forum. Mike, not to disagree, but the 1921 would be a date stamp, only the 1920 was a property stamp, and the acceptance and proofs on the right are consistent with a 1921. Like Mike said, it is a 5 digit commercial that was then placed into military service. The unit marking is a Weimar one, as Mike said In addition the rear number is likely a unit rack number, that is the common belief and one I believe is true. Value if all matching is about $800-$1000? Perhaps more if someone was looking for this marking, but its condition is not pristine (nice, but not pristine). Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-04-2011, 02:50 AM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,912 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	No, that is not correct about the numbers and/or the Versailles Treaty. DWM was limited in what they could make, but you find many 1921 army and police lugers. It depends on how much you paid on whether you over-paid. No offense meant, but sometimes its best to study up before purchasing. I have made many too early buys (i.e. it will be worth what I paid in a few years, but right now its a bit high ) Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-04-2011, 02:58 AM	#8
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Ed, Please disagree with me whenever needed. Any info that is wrong should be corrected. I remember reading posts about arsenals mistakenly adding 1921, instead of 1920 as a property mark. I don't remember seeing another commercial that had a date added to the chamber, which is why I thought it was a property mark. I agree, it is a date. It's very straight and centered, unlike most property marks. __________________ Mike C.

07-03-2011, 09:44 AM	#4
whatthecrunchyo User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 22 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks fellas for the information. I have some strange rub marks and what looks like some nicks that are on the middle of the barrel. You can see them in the first picture and they are on both sides of the barrel. Any idea what this may have been? Someone told me it was where someone tried attaching a silencer and I thought that that was pretty far-fetched.

07-03-2011, 11:24 AM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Jordan, as has been stated above it started life as a commercial that was subsequently diverted to military use. You will quite possibly find that both the side plate and take-down lever are also numbered on their bottums in the commercial fashion. The grip strap marking indicates that the pistol was the 23rd weapon of the First Battalion staff of the 18th Infantry Regiment of the Reichswehr. The additional marking on the back of the frame is also the weapon number. Numbering in such nonstandard locations is referred to as Weimar army Provisional marking and would have been placed there prior to the 1922 Reichswehr Directive on unit markings. The grip strap marking would have come later.

07-03-2011, 09:35 PM	#6
whatthecrunchyo User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 22 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks George, I was under the impression that this was a somewhat rare and sought after pistol relatively speaking since there were only 1,500 allowed by the Treaty of Versailles (or is that even correct?!). Is this the case? I'm hoping that I didn't make a stupid buy!

07-04-2011, 09:40 AM	#9
whatthecrunchyo User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 22 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	No offense taken, I've been known to "pull the trigger" on things a little prematurely. Luckily for us that buy Lugers (this isn't my first), the price will eventually come around. That's my selling point to my wife...that it's an "investment" :-P

07-04-2011, 12:07 PM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Mike, I must disagee with most of the earlier posters, since I believe that this waa never commerical production. I note the the first digit (#9) has been added to the left receiver, which in fact was made as a standard 4 digit 1921 dated military, with the proper acceptance stamps on the right receiver. This is also verified by the Weimar military unit ID on the front grip strap and rack # on the rear of the frame. The only reason that I can think of why the serial number might have been changed, is that it was the same as another luger alreary in that unit's invertory, although probably and earlier date. It would appear that some unit armorers were no better than our current police forces, in not using the date & toggle code as part of a PO8's identification. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

07-04-2011, 12:28 PM	#11
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	After a second look, the blue on the barrel doesn't match the blue on the receiver and the small flange looks a bit odd. This leads me to believe (without seeing any barrel marking) that the odd wear on the middle of the barrel could have come from a barrel change. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

07-04-2011, 02:01 PM	#12
whatthecrunchyo User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 22 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Is there a way to tell that the barrel was changed? The bottom of the barrel says 85516 which matches the numbers on the rest of the pistol. Under that is 88.

07-04-2011, 02:56 PM	#13
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Jordan, are the side plate and take-down lever numbered on the bottum?

07-04-2011, 04:35 PM	#14
whatthecrunchyo User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 22 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Yes, they are both number 16, the same number that is on the side.

07-04-2011, 04:39 PM	#15
whatthecrunchyo User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 22 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I just looked at the "88" on the barrel and it looks like there are actually three 8s, however they look more like 3 circles on top of each other, similar to a stoplight.

07-04-2011, 05:01 PM	#16
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Jordan, The "88" stamp is probably 8,83. It is the bore measured from land to land in millimeters. The die bounced and caused a double or ghost image. __________________ Mike C.

07-04-2011, 05:26 PM	#18
whatthecrunchyo User Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 22 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	George, so would you say that this is 9MM or .30cal?

07-04-2011, 05:28 PM	#19
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I'm still not convinced that it was ever a commerical 5 digit luger. The serial on the barrel and frame appear to be hand stamped as the digits are not properly alined. Also, where are the normal commerical proof marks on the barrel and receiver? These normally would not be removed when appropriated by the military. I've had several c/n proofed commerical lugers, later rebarrelled and numbered in the military fashion, that retained their C/N proofing on the receiver and commerical serialization on the TD lever and side plate. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

07-04-2011, 05:40 PM	#20
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,855 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	I'm still not convinced that it was ever a commerical 5 digit luger. The serial on the barrel and frame appear to be hand stamped as the digits are not properly alined. Also, where are the normal commerical proof marks on the barrel and receiver? These normally would not be removed when appropriated by the military. Tom, Is it possible the pistol was diverted to the military line after serial numbering but before Crown N proofing? That might account for the 5 digit serial and no Crown N proofs. Also the hidden serial numbers almost make it a commercial without doubt? Also.. even if a commercial pistol were taken by the military..isn't it unusual to see crown N proofs AND military proofs along the right side? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."