Power of P-08 ammo in the 1920's

HisSoldier · 02-16-2012, 02:17 AM

In another forum a guy with a very nice 1920's commercial P-08 was warned not to shoot it because metallurgy wasn't what it is now. The point was also made that one might happen upon higher strength ammo.

I maintain that the materials used by DWM, and the heat treating processes, were probably state of the science of the day, and that the strength of the action unless degraded by corrosion, fire, or battering should be almost identical to the day it came out of DWM.

It's the guns that are made today that I have my doubts about, there are some really poor materials in many guns made today because people can't seem to tell the difference between Zamak and medium carbon steel.

Does anyone know what the 9MM and 7.65MM standard ammunition power was compared to what we buy over the counter today? I would guess it's not as powerful, because of liability fears, except for +P stuff.

DavidJayUden · 02-16-2012, 07:49 AM

I know of no side-by-side comparisons to new vs. old ammo, and even close comparisons today may not be accurate to the pressures experienced with the same ammo. 90 years ago.
What I'd always look for is the least powerful ammo that will correctly function the pistol, and call it good.
Like you said, the +P stuff is to be avoided, as well as some military SMG ammo.
And I agree that if you have a nice Luger thats value is based on the fact that it is 100% matching numbers, it probably isn't a good decision to shoot it. Parts do break today, just like they did back then.
dju

padredan · 02-17-2012, 05:54 PM

this got me to thinking and looking at somethings. Looking to find some low power 9mm ammo that will function. or close to the pessure of the earlier military loads.I haven't reloaded in years, i have fired the two lugers i own and i am now thinking i really do not need to be. Take a look at the two pics, first was when i bought it and second after about three mags full of remington umc 115 gr, big difference there, others are calling it a luger fingerprint. one thing for i am going to be really cautious from now on, there has to be some moderen ammo out there that is safe to fire/thanks

Edward Tinker · 02-17-2012, 06:15 PM

Unless there is actual metallurgical deformity, this is a normal action of firing.

That said, when I find a luger without any wear there, it makes me think it has been reblued.

Ed

mrerick · 02-17-2012, 07:52 PM

Use standard velocity ammo like the Winchester 115gn white box low cost ammo you can find in Walmart.

Don't use something that is rated as "NATO". It's higher power and higher velocity.

The Remmington ammo is apparently about 50fps hotter than the Winchester.

One thing to verify is that the recoil spring is the right one for the model Luger you're shooting, and that it's in good condition (consider a new Wolff replacement for the Luger you'll be shooting regularly).

You can get a range of recoil spring strengths in a kit as well...

Marc

padredan · 02-19-2012, 04:03 PM

Marc, what i have found is the white box winchester i have is marked nato, is there another white box winchester?

rhuff · 02-19-2012, 06:07 PM

I am not Mark, but yes, there is a standard WWB ammo. I have had good luck also with 115gr FMJ PMC ammo, and the Federal Champion 115gr FMJ. All of this ammo is low cost "range" ammo, and I have no qualms about shooting it in my 9mm Lugers.

padredan · 02-19-2012, 06:32 PM

thanks, i have some 115gr pmc and a good bit of federal american eagle, i will look for winchester white box not marked nato, thanks again

Sieger · 02-19-2012, 07:16 PM

Hi:

Here is an answer to your specific question.

German Army loads for the 9mm, were, through WWII, 123 gr. bullet at 1,076 fps. This was the standard brass cased load for pistol usage, not to be confused with the steel cased iron core bullet ammo used in the SMGs.

The standard NATO load of today is 117 grs at 1,260 fps.

You can do the math, but beware of shooting modern "HOT" ammo through your vintage Luger.

Sieger

padredan · 02-19-2012, 07:24 PM

outstanding, many thanks

mrerick · 02-19-2012, 07:27 PM

Here's the info on the Winchester:

Manufacturer: Winchester

UPC: 020892201989

9mm Luger Winchester USA Handgun Cartridge, 115-Grain Full Metal Jacket Bullet, 50 Rounds Per Box

362 ft/lbs. energy muzzle
1071 fps at 50 yards
293 ft/lbs. at 50 yards

Remington and others have similar.

MArc

Dwight Gruber · 02-21-2012, 09:12 PM

The powder for the original 9x19mm cartridge was slower burning than what is used in commercial ammunition today. It operates the action more efficiently than contemporary ammunition, which is where the myth that Lugers require "hotter" ammunition comes from.

--Dwight

MAngelo · 02-22-2012, 06:35 PM

For all you shooters of 115 gr loads- Does anyone else find that their Luger's point-of-impact is lower than the point-of-aim? I too use the WWB 115 gr bullets, in both FMJ and HP. I've been curious about trying a 124 gr load, to raise the POI, and have been looking into the various manufacturers' published velocities. I read that the original 9mm Luger load was a 124 gr bullet at around 1070 fps. The POI with my Luger is lower than the POA, and don't want to change the front sight.
It shoots consistently, however, enough to shoot 4 shots into a cloverleaf shape at 8 yards, all overlapping.
Thanks.

HisSoldier · 03-04-2012, 01:08 PM

You guys got me reassessing my own loads, My target was 1200FPS, and there's no reason for it! I load for plinking/target shooting, and it makes sense to load for minimum function power.

Ed Mc · 03-04-2012, 10:23 PM

" Does anyone else find that their Luger's point-of-impact is lower "

Mine was the opposite with the same Win white box. Indoor range with the target ~25 feet. Good grouping but six or more inches high. Only shot a few rds as I found the pistol was missing the locking bolt spring. Oops........

Sieger · 06-20-2012, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Mc

" Does anyone else find that their Luger's point-of-impact is lower "

Mine was the opposite with the same Win white box. Indoor range with the target ~25 feet. Good grouping but six or more inches high. Only shot a few rds as I found the pistol was missing the locking bolt spring. Oops........

Hi:

Somewhere, I remember reading the actual distance the Lugers were sighted for. I believe it was 25 meters.

Can anyone verify this?

Thanks!!

Sieger

spartacus38 · 06-20-2012, 04:30 AM

I use 115 gr White Box Winchester and am always 3 to 5 inches high at 25 yds with many Lugers.
I am shooting at 5000 feet elevation if that makes any difference.
Bob

Norme · 06-20-2012, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi:

Somewhere, I remember reading the actual distance the Lugers were sighted for. I believe it was 25 meters.

Can anyone verify this?

Thanks!!

Sieger

Hi Sieger, P08's were originally sighted for 100 meters and had a front sight blade 5.0mm tall. In 1914 this was changed to 50 meters by fitting a blade 5.5mm tall. Most of the earlier guns were retrofitted with the taller blade at the same time as they had hold-opens added. Regards, Norm

lew1 · 06-20-2012, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by padredan

thanks, i have some 115gr pmc and a good bit of federal american eagle, i will look for winchester white box not marked nato, thanks again

The 'Nato' marked 9mm may have 124 gr. bullets.

In any event the white box 115 grain 9mm is marked with the Manufacturer's Item number of "Q4172"

Originally such was referred to as "Q" loads, later the white box.

That is what I believe you are looking for.

CavScoutEurope · 06-20-2012, 11:55 AM

Good thing I saw this!! The only white box I saw at Wal-Mart was the NATO ammo, Now I have to go back and buy the correct ammo! I wonder if it makes a difference if the Luger was used by the VOPO? Did the East Germans make any changes to allow for "hotter" rounds? I know that my firing pin was replaced by them....

02-16-2012, 02:17 AM	#1
HisSoldier User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Oregon Coast Posts: 95 Thanks: 1 Thanked 14 Times in 10 Posts	Power of P-08 ammo in the 1920's In another forum a guy with a very nice 1920's commercial P-08 was warned not to shoot it because metallurgy wasn't what it is now. The point was also made that one might happen upon higher strength ammo. I maintain that the materials used by DWM, and the heat treating processes, were probably state of the science of the day, and that the strength of the action unless degraded by corrosion, fire, or battering should be almost identical to the day it came out of DWM. It's the guns that are made today that I have my doubts about, there are some really poor materials in many guns made today because people can't seem to tell the difference between Zamak and medium carbon steel. Does anyone know what the 9MM and 7.65MM standard ammunition power was compared to what we buy over the counter today? I would guess it's not as powerful, because of liability fears, except for +P stuff. __________________ The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

02-17-2012, 05:54 PM	#3
padredan User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: louisiana Now, but from the Rebublic of Texas Posts: 937 Thanks: 429 Thanked 316 Times in 182 Posts	this got me to thinking and looking at somethings. Looking to find some low power 9mm ammo that will function. or close to the pessure of the earlier military loads.I haven't reloaded in years, i have fired the two lugers i own and i am now thinking i really do not need to be. Take a look at the two pics, first was when i bought it and second after about three mags full of remington umc 115 gr, big difference there, others are calling it a luger fingerprint. one thing for i am going to be really cautious from now on, there has to be some moderen ammo out there that is safe to fire/thanks Attached Thumbnails __________________ In this world nothing is free, except the grace of God Last edited by padredan; 02-19-2012 at 11:51 PM.

02-17-2012, 06:15 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Unless there is actual metallurgical deformity, this is a normal action of firing. That said, when I find a luger without any wear there, it makes me think it has been reblued. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-17-2012, 07:52 PM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Use standard velocity ammo like the Winchester 115gn white box low cost ammo you can find in Walmart. Don't use something that is rated as "NATO". It's higher power and higher velocity. The Remmington ammo is apparently about 50fps hotter than the Winchester. One thing to verify is that the recoil spring is the right one for the model Luger you're shooting, and that it's in good condition (consider a new Wolff replacement for the Luger you'll be shooting regularly). You can get a range of recoil spring strengths in a kit as well... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

02-19-2012, 04:03 PM	#6
padredan User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: louisiana Now, but from the Rebublic of Texas Posts: 937 Thanks: 429 Thanked 316 Times in 182 Posts	Marc, what i have found is the white box winchester i have is marked nato, is there another white box winchester? __________________ In this world nothing is free, except the grace of God

02-16-2012, 07:49 AM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I know of no side-by-side comparisons to new vs. old ammo, and even close comparisons today may not be accurate to the pressures experienced with the same ammo. 90 years ago. What I'd always look for is the least powerful ammo that will correctly function the pistol, and call it good. Like you said, the +P stuff is to be avoided, as well as some military SMG ammo. And I agree that if you have a nice Luger thats value is based on the fact that it is 100% matching numbers, it probably isn't a good decision to shoot it. Parts do break today, just like they did back then. dju

02-19-2012, 06:07 PM	#7
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,270 Thanks: 2,686 Thanked 958 Times in 704 Posts	I am not Mark, but yes, there is a standard WWB ammo. I have had good luck also with 115gr FMJ PMC ammo, and the Federal Champion 115gr FMJ. All of this ammo is low cost "range" ammo, and I have no qualms about shooting it in my 9mm Lugers.

02-19-2012, 06:32 PM	#8
padredan User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: louisiana Now, but from the Rebublic of Texas Posts: 937 Thanks: 429 Thanked 316 Times in 182 Posts	thanks, i have some 115gr pmc and a good bit of federal american eagle, i will look for winchester white box not marked nato, thanks again __________________ In this world nothing is free, except the grace of God

02-19-2012, 07:16 PM	#9
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Hi: Here is an answer to your specific question. German Army loads for the 9mm, were, through WWII, 123 gr. bullet at 1,076 fps. This was the standard brass cased load for pistol usage, not to be confused with the steel cased iron core bullet ammo used in the SMGs. The standard NATO load of today is 117 grs at 1,260 fps. You can do the math, but beware of shooting modern "HOT" ammo through your vintage Luger. Sieger

02-19-2012, 07:24 PM	#10
padredan User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: louisiana Now, but from the Rebublic of Texas Posts: 937 Thanks: 429 Thanked 316 Times in 182 Posts	outstanding, many thanks __________________ In this world nothing is free, except the grace of God

02-19-2012, 07:27 PM	#11
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Here's the info on the Winchester: Manufacturer: Winchester UPC: 020892201989 9mm Luger Winchester USA Handgun Cartridge, 115-Grain Full Metal Jacket Bullet, 50 Rounds Per Box 362 ft/lbs. energy muzzle 1071 fps at 50 yards 293 ft/lbs. at 50 yards Remington and others have similar. MArc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

02-21-2012, 09:12 PM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	The powder for the original 9x19mm cartridge was slower burning than what is used in commercial ammunition today. It operates the action more efficiently than contemporary ammunition, which is where the myth that Lugers require "hotter" ammunition comes from. --Dwight

02-22-2012, 06:35 PM	#13
MAngelo User Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	For all you shooters of 115 gr loads- Does anyone else find that their Luger's point-of-impact is lower than the point-of-aim? I too use the WWB 115 gr bullets, in both FMJ and HP. I've been curious about trying a 124 gr load, to raise the POI, and have been looking into the various manufacturers' published velocities. I read that the original 9mm Luger load was a 124 gr bullet at around 1070 fps. The POI with my Luger is lower than the POA, and don't want to change the front sight. It shoots consistently, however, enough to shoot 4 shots into a cloverleaf shape at 8 yards, all overlapping. Thanks.

03-04-2012, 01:08 PM	#14
HisSoldier User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Oregon Coast Posts: 95 Thanks: 1 Thanked 14 Times in 10 Posts	You guys got me reassessing my own loads, My target was 1200FPS, and there's no reason for it! I load for plinking/target shooting, and it makes sense to load for minimum function power. __________________ The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

03-04-2012, 10:23 PM	#15
Ed Mc User Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Macon, GA Posts: 10 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	" Does anyone else find that their Luger's point-of-impact is lower " Mine was the opposite with the same Win white box. Indoor range with the target ~25 feet. Good grouping but six or more inches high. Only shot a few rds as I found the pistol was missing the locking bolt spring. Oops........

06-20-2012, 04:30 AM	#17
spartacus38 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Lake Tahoe,CA. Posts: 695 Thanks: 0 Thanked 70 Times in 56 Posts	I use 115 gr White Box Winchester and am always 3 to 5 inches high at 25 yds with many Lugers. I am shooting at 5000 feet elevation if that makes any difference. Bob

06-20-2012, 11:55 AM	#20
CavScoutEurope User Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 86 Thanks: 102 Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts	Good thing I saw this!! The only white box I saw at Wal-Mart was the NATO ammo, Now I have to go back and buy the correct ammo! I wonder if it makes a difference if the Luger was used by the VOPO? Did the East Germans make any changes to allow for "hotter" rounds? I know that my firing pin was replaced by them....