DWM Commercial 1911-1913 (?)

[jamese]

I took the liberty to Translate through "BABEL FISH" so I could read it and just posted here for for others. For those that have a better understanding of German, fell free to correct any issues, however I think the translation explains it well

Pistol,
in order to be able to give on your question an answer, I must draw back somewhat further and take the liberty to try into German. Unfortunately I must assume the translation, which I cannot even control will be afflicted with errors. Simply the correct feeling for the use of the English language is missing to me.

The mentioned Landauer list developed due to the order of the general war department of the Prussian war Ministry from 6 May 1913, which planned the installation of the chamber catch and the exchange of the grain, for reaching the uniform range for direct fire of 50 m. The Kingdom of Bavaria decided by order of the Bavarian war Ministry from 2 March 1914 only 10 months later to the same step; as we know too late, since on 1 September the 1st world war broke out. The Kingdoms of Saxonia and Württemberg were here probably faster with their decision; at least for Württemberg it is secured that the pistols could be only partly converted. To the state of affairs in Saxonia unfortunately any references are missing to me.

In order to determine the number of P08 which can be changed, the artillery depots assigned them assigned regiments the listing of the pistols which can be changed. All should be naturally changed for the individual Kingdoms of belonging pistols. With that pistols which can be assigned the owners the possibility of the change for the price of 2,80 Goldmark, to decide were allowed they naturally were offered to the private property of the officers whether they would drive through the change to leave wanted or not. 16500 pistols of the Kingdom of Bavaria beside approx. 500 P08 from private possession were finally communicated to the Gewehrfabrik Erfurt for change. Still several lists of the Bavarian artillery depots are present, but point these contrary to the listing from Landau only much isolate the weapon numbers out in war archives of Bavarian main public records. Differently with the Landauer list. Here precisely the weapon number is assigned to the individual regiments and spare formations. We can infer from this list among other things that the 1st replacement M.G. 189 P08 were assigned to Kompagnie of the IITH army corps, or that the individual battalions Bavarian 18. Infantry of regiment different quantities of Ordonnanzpistolen were entitled (43, 44 and 45 pieces). The thing has however a hook; the weapon masters of the individual regiments distinctive neither according to manufacturer, nor after the date of manufacture and forgot besides often the letters to the serial number, so that we receive a real overview only if we can assign on the basis the troop stamps free of doubts several pistols to the listing of the regiments.

And now to your civilian DWM with No. 58739 and the pertinent bag. If the bag should not belong to the pistol, but a collecting tank, to the pistol, would be quite possible it would have come only later, perhaps through that the pistol to a formation, a regiment, the Kgl. Bay. 2. Army corps was spent, perhaps even to a regiment, which ranked among the Landauer artillery depot. Then however the officer would have decided against the execution of the change at his pistol, since you on the list one does not lead. I however assume P08 and bag belong together; to prove does not leave itself however for the reasons described above.

But the serial number 58763 the assumption specified in the list nevertheless strengthens that your weapon was supplied to the 2nd Bavarian army corps.

Now still to the question of the blackened bags. In 1915 in the army official gazette is reported three times on care and/or blacknesses. There was a all-highest cabinet order from 21 September, which already followed on 27 September a guidance to blackening the bags. Such instructions were valid in this case for the users of the Ordonnanzpistole and not for with the P08 of equipped officers. The bags of the officers remain brown into the 2nd world war inside.

I would assume in each case later blackened bags with production were 1915 ago in 1915 also used. Apart from it I would like to notice that probably only a completely small percentage of the bags carried in 1915 was also blackened. I have certainly still more than 50 bags of the years 1909 - 1911 and only three of it were later blackened. If one goes today still over the battlegrounds of the 1st world war, or of it one regards, may the contemporary photos introduce itself that in the trench warfare completely different concerns tormented the soldier at that time, blacken as its shoes and other leather things!

To the last question: I can be possible from here from naturally not answer, whether it is possible in the states to be able to acquire which are applicable regiment stories available but should it during a longer period to acquire these here in Germany. Since the name of the alleged owner admits is, it should be possible for someone without German knowledge to sift regiment stories after the name.

Best regards Klaus

[Pistol]

Thank you very much Klaus for the information. You are like an Encyclopedia. And thanks to jamese for the translation. I had translated through another site, and was going to post today in English for others. There were some mimor variations in my translation, but it helped me to see both translations to get the best meaning. These computer translations seem to do a good job, but loose a little of the intended meaning in the translation.

On the hold-open and site. Either the officer did not have time to have it sent in for the modifications, or did not want to pay the 2.80 gold mark for the change.

Regarding the black dye. If I understand correctly there was a 1915 order about care and blackening of holsters. Blackening was more applicable to the Ordonnanpistole and not the officer's PO8 holsters, which typically remained brown. Furthermore, based upon Klaus's collection of 50 holsters dating from 1909-1911, only three of these were blackened.

So, it is possible then that my 1911 holster in question was blackned shortly after the 1915 order, and the black dye would be consider consistent with that period. However, it is more likely that it was blackned years later subsequent to WWI.

So, the owner served in the 1st Battalion of the Bavarian 16th Intantry Regiment, or in the 2nd battalion of the Bavarian 2nd Reserve Infantrie Regiment. And both of these were part of theBavarian 1st Army Corps. I saw in a post by Jan Still, that the 16th infantry Regiment was part of the 1st, 10th, and 11th Bavarian Infantry Divisons during WWI. It was part of 1st 1914 to March 1915, when it joined the 10th Bavarian Division. It became part of 11th Bavarian Div. in August 1918. Is this the same 16th Bavarian Regiment on the holster. Jan has a good timeline on his post. I want to ensure I don't have this confused with a differnt regiment.

[klaus 3338]

Pistol,
It could have been during the Great War that a regiment was in several Infantry divisions but before the war two Infantry regiments made an Infantry Brigade and two Brigades made an Infantry Division.

I attach some photos of blacked holsters according the 1915 dated order.

The first three photos are showing a brown holster of the 2 squadron of the Dragoon Regiment No. 22. The next photos are showing a blacked holster of the 1 squadron of the same Regiment.

The next two photos are showing a blacked Bavarian holster.

Regards Klaus

[Pistol]

Interesting. Is the inside of the top flap ever blackend on the 1915 blackend holsters? I ask becasue my holster is dyed black on the inside flap/top. But the inside portion where the gun fits in is dark brown. Just like your photos.

If the inside top flap was never blackend, would that mean my holster was blackened years later after WWI?

In your final photo. Why does that holster have a significant portion brown on the right. Did the black dye wear off, or was it not blackend completly/entirely?

Was the holster stitching also blackend or left white.

Thanks again.

[klaus 3338]

I can´t remember that I ever saw a holster which was blacked inside (later). That wouldn´t have made any sence.
Most of the holsters were blacked only on front side and flap and often the black calor was upused by wearing over the years.

Best regards Klaus

[klaus 3338]

Here are some more photos of a holster which was blacked later- only front side and flap are blacked.

[klaus 3338]

Here are two 1910 dated holsters - the left one was blacked on front and backside, the flap too but not inside the holster.

[George Anderson]

Klaus, you have some wonderful holsters.

[Pistol]

nice photos Klaus........how do you store your holsters and do you apply something on the holsters for protection?

[klaus 3338]

They are hanging on the wall or lie on the floor.
I use Salamander Sportwax for the protection.

[A.Mifsin]

You amaze me Klaus, no wonder you know so much about holsters. A very Nice collection Thanks for sharing.
Alf.

[sheepherder]

Nice collection of holsters!!!

...and drum mags...and loading tools...and shoulder stocks...and sub-caliber inserts...and...

(Do I see a Borchardt shoulder stock on that pile???)

[Pistol]

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/ad...hp?itemID=7597

found this 1911 for sale and it appears black on inside. But poor condition.

[Pistol]

Here are some photos of my holster. With the macro on the camera and flash I can actually see the original burgandy brown color.

[Pistol]

a few more

[Pistol]

last ones

[wlyon]

Klaus
Now that's a collection!!! Thanks for sharing. Bill

[klaus 3338]

Pistol,
because of the photos I would say that your holster is a well worn one which was never blacked!?

[klaus 3338]

Postino, yes, it´s a Borchandt stock.

[Pistol]

You don't think the top inside where the regiment marks are located looks blackened? If the black is from age and wear should I try and clean? If so, what do you recommend?

In the meantime, I'm researching the regiment histories.

Thanks!