45 DWM 1921 Luger ?????

petesguns · 03-11-2009, 09:24 PM

Just bought a 1921 dated DWM Luger in .45 ACP, from a walk in at a local gun show. He told me he thought it was a salesman's sample from the Stoeger days. It is a beautiful high gloss blue with a six inch barrel. It has no grip safety. It has the same trigger guard and trigger profile as the US Army trials Lugers. It has a chamber date of 1921, DWM on the toggle link, 45 on the underside of the takedown lug, 45 on the inside of the frame in front of the takedown lever and 11.35mm underneath the chamber on the inside. There are absolutely no other markings or proofs, ANYWHERE on any of the parts. The frame is NOT widened as is seen on some Martz Lugers. The gun is in a custom leather covered display case with a wood bottomed magazine and vintage cleaning tools as seen with some early Lugers. There is no indication whatever who may have made this gun. The finish is about mint, but the gun is obviously not newly made. Any help would be VERY welcome as to the identity of the maker. Thanks.

MFC · 03-11-2009, 09:51 PM

Tom,
Lugers made for the commercial market were not dated. My guess is if this Luger was made for Stoeger or another importer, it wouldn't be dated. The 11.35mm seems American. The European decimal is a comma, which is normally seen on the underside of the barrel for the bore gauge, such as 8,82 and (mm) was never used.
These are just some thoughts I had about it. Pictures would be great.

Edward Tinker · 03-11-2009, 10:11 PM

Well maker would be DWM if original (doubtful). Pictures would be nice to see?

Does anyone know if Krause marks his in this manner? I know he would not use a 1921 frame, although Martz and other people would.

Any shootable 45 luger would be high on my list to buy

Ed

John Sabato · 03-12-2009, 08:47 AM

petesguns

Welcome to the Lugerforum. Photos of your very unusual Luger will be a necessity to determine its origin since an inperson inspection would be difficult. I know many on the forum would like to see this gun.

Please post closeup sharp focus photos of both sides, the top, the front of the frame, the underside of the barrel, and any other markings that you believe you see on the gun. If you have problems with posting digital photos, you can send them to me at lugerforum@gmail.com and I will be glad to post them for you.

petesguns · 03-12-2009, 08:32 PM

Thanks, and please note that bthe barrel is 7" and not 6.

zinfull · 03-12-2009, 09:58 PM

Where is this luger located? I heard of a 45 luger around my area so just wondering.

Jerry

drbuster · 03-12-2009, 10:00 PM

One thing I can tell everyone here...this is defintely NOT a Krausewerk luger! We know there were various makers of .45 lugers, such as Wyatt, etc. As said above, pictures are mandatory.

John Sabato · 03-13-2009, 05:57 AM

To all,

The photos have just arrived and I know you are all anxious will post them all for your viewing pleasure.

This is a 1921 DWM Luger that has been cleverly modified by a skilled gunsmith to shoot .45 ACP. I can assure you that it did not leave the DWM factory that way.

Some of you may remember that a couple of years ago, Cpt. Monty Mendenhall (I hope I spelled his name correctly), posted photos of a gun similar to this one. That particular conversion was much more crude than this one and I recommended that it NOT be test fired...

A major difference in this gun is that the trigger guard has been stretched and shaped to look like the original .45 test guns of 1906-1907.

The grip frame has the standard P.08 profile and not the profile of the original .45 Lugers or the replica guns made by Mike Krause.

The magazine well has been enlarged by metal removal to accept a .45 caliber sized magazine body.

The magazine appears to have been made by modifying a standard M1911 Colt magazine. All in all, this conversion's quality is much better than the ones previously seen that were not made by Martz... however, because of the amount of metal that had to be removed from the frame and upper receiver in order to get a .45 ACP round to fit and function, I am unsure about the strength of the conversion, and can't say I would recommend test firing this gun in your hand...at least until it had been test fired in a ransom type rest and then examined for potential damage.

I would absolutely NOT recommend the firing of HOT loads in this gun.

I'll bet it would be fun to put a couple boxes through this one!

Thanks to Petesguns for sharing the photos...

I don't know what you paid for this gun, but it is pretty unique even if it is a modification of a standard frame Luger, and not an original. Outside of the Martz conversions, I haven't seen many that looked this good.

Here are the first 10 photos:

John Sabato · 03-13-2009, 05:59 AM

Enjoy!

John Sabato · 03-13-2009, 06:03 AM

The final 7 photos!

petesguns · 03-13-2009, 07:34 AM

THANK you for posting the photos. I also appreciate any info that anyone can dredge up on this old girl. I have NOT shot it, but if it sticks around long enough, I will, as suggested , in a rest first, and hoping all goes well, then have some fun with her. It does look like a nicely done job. The gun is in my shop, Pete's Gun Shop, in Adams, MA. It will be at the West Springfield, MA, Big E gun show this weekend. Thanks again!

lfid · 03-13-2009, 01:19 PM

awesome !!!

big thanks for sharing

Bill

LugerVern · 03-13-2009, 03:00 PM

WOW!!!

NICE!!!

I see ware marks on the back of the frame, so it looks to have been fired a few times.
I would inspect the rear of the breachblock for damage both before and after firing a few rounds. Getting everything timed just right might be a challenge.

Have they done anything to the main recoil spring? You would have to remove the left grip to see?

Nice gun

Vern

sheepherder · 03-13-2009, 03:53 PM

Interesting...

Can you tell if it feeds/chambers a full-length 45 ACP round, or does the bullet have to be seated deeper than the 1.275" OAL recommended???

lugerholsterrepair · 03-13-2009, 03:55 PM

John, at least until it had been test fired in a ransom type rest and then examined for potential damage.

Bubba tapes em to an old tire and ties a string to the trigger.

Very neat pistola!

If you ever do decide to touch one off it would be an interesting report!

Jerry Burney

alvin · 03-13-2009, 10:28 PM

Looks like German always uses "K" to replace "C" (KaLiber). Most likely there is also a "C" in the language, replacing "K"?

Just kidding. The bolt to hold .45 must be interesting....

DavidJayUden · 03-13-2009, 10:30 PM

I don't wish to pry, but approx. what is that gem valued at?
DJU

rolandtg · 03-14-2009, 09:25 AM

Interesting and beautiful. Pity we can't give credit to the talented maker.

Those wood grips are really attractive. I wish I could find a set like that.

Went Blakely · 03-14-2009, 11:09 AM

Woah, that is ridiculously sweet, i love the custom magazine from the original, nice as!

drbuster · 03-14-2009, 12:47 PM

This is a beautiful example of a skilled gunsmith gone beserk! It must have taken many hours of buffing, machining, grinding, welding, bluing, etc. to come up with this curiosity. Obviously one of a kind, obviously re-blued and to be valued only by what a buyer would want to pay for it, providing the amount meets the requirements of the seller.

03-11-2009, 09:24 PM	#1
petesguns User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Readsboro, VT Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	45 DWM 1921 Luger ????? Just bought a 1921 dated DWM Luger in .45 ACP, from a walk in at a local gun show. He told me he thought it was a salesman's sample from the Stoeger days. It is a beautiful high gloss blue with a six inch barrel. It has no grip safety. It has the same trigger guard and trigger profile as the US Army trials Lugers. It has a chamber date of 1921, DWM on the toggle link, 45 on the underside of the takedown lug, 45 on the inside of the frame in front of the takedown lever and 11.35mm underneath the chamber on the inside. There are absolutely no other markings or proofs, ANYWHERE on any of the parts. The frame is NOT widened as is seen on some Martz Lugers. The gun is in a custom leather covered display case with a wood bottomed magazine and vintage cleaning tools as seen with some early Lugers. There is no indication whatever who may have made this gun. The finish is about mint, but the gun is obviously not newly made. Any help would be VERY welcome as to the identity of the maker. Thanks.

03-11-2009, 09:51 PM	#2
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Tom, Lugers made for the commercial market were not dated. My guess is if this Luger was made for Stoeger or another importer, it wouldn't be dated. The 11.35mm seems American. The European decimal is a comma, which is normally seen on the underside of the barrel for the bore gauge, such as 8,82 and (mm) was never used. These are just some thoughts I had about it. Pictures would be great. __________________ Mike C.

03-11-2009, 10:11 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Well maker would be DWM if original (doubtful). Pictures would be nice to see? Does anyone know if Krause marks his in this manner? I know he would not use a 1921 frame, although Martz and other people would. Any shootable 45 luger would be high on my list to buy Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-12-2009, 08:47 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	petesguns Welcome to the Lugerforum. Photos of your very unusual Luger will be a necessity to determine its origin since an inperson inspection would be difficult. I know many on the forum would like to see this gun. Please post closeup sharp focus photos of both sides, the top, the front of the frame, the underside of the barrel, and any other markings that you believe you see on the gun. If you have problems with posting digital photos, you can send them to me at lugerforum@gmail.com and I will be glad to post them for you. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-13-2009, 05:57 AM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	The Photos... To all, The photos have just arrived and I know you are all anxious will post them all for your viewing pleasure. This is a 1921 DWM Luger that has been cleverly modified by a skilled gunsmith to shoot .45 ACP. I can assure you that it did not leave the DWM factory that way. Some of you may remember that a couple of years ago, Cpt. Monty Mendenhall (I hope I spelled his name correctly), posted photos of a gun similar to this one. That particular conversion was much more crude than this one and I recommended that it NOT be test fired... A major difference in this gun is that the trigger guard has been stretched and shaped to look like the original .45 test guns of 1906-1907. The grip frame has the standard P.08 profile and not the profile of the original .45 Lugers or the replica guns made by Mike Krause. The magazine well has been enlarged by metal removal to accept a .45 caliber sized magazine body. The magazine appears to have been made by modifying a standard M1911 Colt magazine. All in all, this conversion's quality is much better than the ones previously seen that were not made by Martz... however, because of the amount of metal that had to be removed from the frame and upper receiver in order to get a .45 ACP round to fit and function, I am unsure about the strength of the conversion, and can't say I would recommend test firing this gun in your hand...at least until it had been test fired in a ransom type rest and then examined for potential damage. I would absolutely NOT recommend the firing of HOT loads in this gun. I'll bet it would be fun to put a couple boxes through this one! Thanks to Petesguns for sharing the photos... I don't know what you paid for this gun, but it is pretty unique even if it is a modification of a standard frame Luger, and not an original. Outside of the Martz conversions, I haven't seen many that looked this good. Here are the first 10 photos: Attached Thumbnails Attached Images __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-12-2009, 08:32 PM	#5
petesguns User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Readsboro, VT Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks, and please note that bthe barrel is 7" and not 6.

03-12-2009, 09:58 PM	#6
zinfull Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sonoma County CA Posts: 240 Thanks: 4 Thanked 32 Times in 15 Posts	Where is this luger located? I heard of a 45 luger around my area so just wondering. Jerry

03-12-2009, 10:00 PM	#7
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	One thing I can tell everyone here...this is defintely NOT a Krausewerk luger! We know there were various makers of .45 lugers, such as Wyatt, etc. As said above, pictures are mandatory.

03-13-2009, 05:59 AM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Here are more photos of the .45 conversion Luger. Enjoy! Attached Thumbnails Attached Images __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-13-2009, 06:03 AM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	More Photos - .45 Caliber conversion The final 7 photos! Attached Thumbnails __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-13-2009, 07:34 AM	#11
petesguns User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Readsboro, VT Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	THANK you for posting the photos. I also appreciate any info that anyone can dredge up on this old girl. I have NOT shot it, but if it sticks around long enough, I will, as suggested , in a rest first, and hoping all goes well, then have some fun with her. It does look like a nicely done job. The gun is in my shop, Pete's Gun Shop, in Adams, MA. It will be at the West Springfield, MA, Big E gun show this weekend. Thanks again!

03-13-2009, 01:19 PM	#12
lfid Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wichita, KS USA Posts: 453 Thanks: 573 Thanked 96 Times in 53 Posts	awesome !!! big thanks for sharing Bill

03-13-2009, 03:00 PM	#13
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	WOW!!! NICE!!! I see ware marks on the back of the frame, so it looks to have been fired a few times. I would inspect the rear of the breachblock for damage both before and after firing a few rounds. Getting everything timed just right might be a challenge. Have they done anything to the main recoil spring? You would have to remove the left grip to see? Nice gun Vern

03-13-2009, 03:53 PM	#14
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	Interesting... Can you tell if it feeds/chambers a full-length 45 ACP round, or does the bullet have to be seated deeper than the 1.275" OAL recommended???

03-13-2009, 03:55 PM	#15
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	John, at least until it had been test fired in a ransom type rest and then examined for potential damage. Bubba tapes em to an old tire and ties a string to the trigger. Very neat pistola! If you ever do decide to touch one off it would be an interesting report! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-13-2009, 10:28 PM	#16
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Looks like German always uses "K" to replace "C" (KaLiber). Most likely there is also a "C" in the language, replacing "K"? Just kidding. The bolt to hold .45 must be interesting....

03-13-2009, 10:30 PM	#17
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I don't wish to pry, but approx. what is that gem valued at? DJU

03-14-2009, 09:25 AM	#18
rolandtg User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 471 Thanks: 361 Thanked 254 Times in 111 Posts	Interesting and beautiful. Pity we can't give credit to the talented maker. Those wood grips are really attractive. I wish I could find a set like that.

03-14-2009, 11:09 AM	#19
Went Blakely User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	Woah, that is ridiculously sweet, i love the custom magazine from the original, nice as! __________________ Went Blakely

03-14-2009, 12:47 PM	#20
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	This is a beautiful example of a skilled gunsmith gone beserk! It must have taken many hours of buffing, machining, grinding, welding, bluing, etc. to come up with this curiosity. Obviously one of a kind, obviously re-blued and to be valued only by what a buyer would want to pay for it, providing the amount meets the requirements of the seller.