1920 Carbine, Less Forearm - Page 2

CAP Black · 04-05-2015, 10:40 PM

I take that to mean that Ed still has no carbine?
Jack

ithacaartist · 04-06-2015, 12:18 PM

I guess not. The thread has calmed down a bit since last year. I used to notice new posts added almost daily, but it was frustrating because I'd think, "Great, Ed got his carbine!" and it would always not be the case.

Diver6106 · 04-06-2015, 03:31 PM

Didn't the carbines all have a grip safety? Is the left grip cut to take a safety? Anyway, a nice long barreled Luger.

cirelaw · 04-06-2015, 03:59 PM

Dave great question! The 1920 model used parts fom the earlier grip lugers, pre 1908!. During the years after the first world war they often were faced by shortages and restrictions. Mine has an unusual rear sight and a grip like its 1902 cousin. Every luger has its' own history and story~~ Eric

cirelaw · 04-11-2015, 03:11 PM

There is a 1920 Luger Carbine for sale and has an exposed "MADE IN GERMANY' stamped in plain view near the side plate. My carbine has its "GERMANY' import hidden under the barrel and has to be taken apart to even find it! I hadn't even noticed it for years! Was the placement dictated by regulation or law as it doesn't seem uniform~Eric

ithacaartist · 04-11-2015, 03:57 PM

Eric, if I'm not mistaken, it's up to the importer where and how lightly to stamp them. There are guidelines, I think, dictating font size and perhaps more.

cirelaw · 04-11-2015, 04:17 PM

Dave I have to admit, I don't know. My 1902 chubby has 'GERMANY'????? There has to be some law somewhere! Research time!!

cirelaw · 04-11-2015, 04:33 PM

My Fault. Mine are not import marks. Mearly the county of origin. The importer marks are deadly as to value. You don't want his name on your gun!! I just posted this article in my section. Tks As Always!!

cirelaw · 04-11-2015, 04:37 PM

Found it http://rockislandauction.blogspot.co...m_medium=email tks

Ben M. · 04-12-2015, 11:05 AM

i think export stamp and importer stamping is being mixed up

Anfanger · 04-19-2015, 03:57 PM

Photos and information in two well known Luger references, (Kenyon and Jones), both show the 1920 Carbine, Less Forearm, as posted by Eric. Also posted by Eric are the threads from landofborchardt.com, with this quote: "The Luger carbine reappeared in the 1920's, but as a new model parts gun, assembled by DWM/BKIW from WW1 and other commercial surplus Luger parts, being offered in a wide variety of configurations, mostly with mismatched serial numbers, being advertised in many 1920 American sales catalogs."

With respect, and understanding that this thread got highjacked talking about Ed's carbine, could the focus return to the original thread?
There is a lot of info in the above quote, and it all may apply to the topic of the original thread:
"reappeared in the 1920's"
"new model parts gun"
"assembled from...WW1 and other commercial surplus luger parts"
"wide variety of configurations"
"mostly mismatched serial numbers"

Books can and do have errors. Here are two authors, still being referenced by Luger collectors, both with correlating evidence to the existence of a 1920 Carbine, Less Forearm.
I have not fired mine to know if it functions properly without the forearm bar soldered to the front of the frame, but I think it will based on info in the Jones book, (see below). I have compared its condition and witness mark with several other Lugers that are in my collection, and feel that the witness mark is authentic and correct, and I'm not convinced that the barrel was replaced.
Referring to "Luger Variations", by Jones, on pg 30 there is a table showing all the different spring criteria. This chart was posted by Sheepherder a couple days ago for GT who is working on mainsprings. This table makes reference to the differences between springs in carbines with and without forearms. The carbine (w/ no forearm), has a spring with 51-54 pounds required for complete compression. This value is in line with the poundage of all other listed lugers, except the carbine with forearm, which is roughly half, at 23 pounds. At the bottom of the table is the following note, that explains this: "Note: The 1920 Carbine (with forearm) has an auxiliary recoil spring in the wooden forearm, and the two springs combined have the correct poundage (51)."
I will continue to search the forum for info about carbines without forearms, and welcome those references if someone has them.
If someone else has one these, please let me know.
I have looked at page 98 (P08 Carbine) of the commercial database, and there is one listed, S/N3 as "no forend", but it has an artillery style barrel and sight. Also on the carbine list is S/N 93, "no forestock".
There is also S/N 1896k, carbine style barrel, no forend. S/N 8939t has 11 3/4" barrel and ramp sight.

Should there be newer, published in a reference book information regarding this variation, the "1920 Carbine, Less Forearm", I would like to learn of it.
Many thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, and to all of us who continue to study and learn about these fascinating firearms.

lugerholsterrepair · 04-19-2015, 04:12 PM

John, Very well done! You have pretty much covered this subject. Not much is put together on civilian guns..No books I know of. Charles Whittaker at the Land of Borchardt is a very fine Gentleman and very knowledgeable. Good job! The only other variations I know of might be the Pacific Arms guns. I actually owned a Pacific Arms Carbine with a forearm once years ago..They likely made or put together long barreled guns with and without forearms.

Dick Herman · 04-25-2015, 10:19 PM

I was traveling when this thread was posted, so I was unable to put in my 2 cents. For what it is worth here is my observation and opinion.

Both the Jones and Kenyon reference books have been around for a very long time. Their information is useful and has been used and accepted be more contemporary authors. The 1920ish Luger carbine without a fore stock has been referenced since a time when there were fewer collectors and values that did not encourage counterfeiting.

One of the reasons for the fore stock spring assist on the 1902 carbines was the weaker leaf main spring. Due to the reciprocating mass of the 1902 carbine barrel and toggle top assembly the leaf main spring did not provide enough force for complete closure. The fore stock spring assist provided the additional force for complete battery closure. The later coil main spring provided enough force for complete battery.

What I am presenting here is a Model 1923ish Commercial American Eagle Carbine without a fore stock. The frame is marked Safe and the extractor is marked Loaded. The 11 3/4" Barrel with an adjustable rear sight is 7.65mm Parabellum. As stated above there is no Fore Stock. The serial number is 91273. Small parts have matching numbers. Proof marks are C/N. Country of origin, Germany, is marked in several places.

Dick Herman · 04-25-2015, 10:27 PM

1920 Carbine W/O Fore Stock

Dick Herman · 04-25-2015, 10:32 PM

1920 Carbine with out fore stock

cirelaw · 04-25-2015, 10:33 PM

Perfect and Beautiful!!!! Nice Score!!! etc. Each of them have story resurrecting in the turbulant Weimer era~How many were assembled is anyone guess! Mine #3231t Go figure!

cirelaw · 04-25-2015, 11:29 PM

I don't own an 02 for comparison~ What Differences are the between the 2 and are part interchangeable if any as pats 'what parts' have been used? Eric

MFC · 04-25-2015, 11:33 PM

Hi Dick,
According to Jan Still's Weimar Lugers, S#91237 was made in 1921. It is classified as a '20DWM Commercial'. It falls into the Stoeger 2000 gun 'Safe and Loaded' contract. Approximately #89700 to #91700.

It must have been a special order to have a factory numbered barrel (not added by Stoeger in the US, as most are).

Super nice and rare, Safe and Loaded American Eagle long barrel with stock.
Thank you for showing it.

04-06-2015, 12:18 PM	#22
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,283 Thanks: 7,007 Thanked 2,476 Times in 1,319 Posts	I guess not. The thread has calmed down a bit since last year. I used to notice new posts added almost daily, but it was frustrating because I'd think, "Great, Ed got his carbine!" and it would always not be the case. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

04-06-2015, 03:59 PM	#24
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Dave great question! The 1920 model used parts fom the earlier grip lugers, pre 1908!. During the years after the first world war they often were faced by shortages and restrictions. Mine has an unusual rear sight and a grip like its 1902 cousin. Every luger has its' own history and story~~ Eric Attached Thumbnails

04-11-2015, 03:11 PM	#25
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	There is a 1920 Luger Carbine for sale and has an exposed "MADE IN GERMANY' stamped in plain view near the side plate. My carbine has its "GERMANY' import hidden under the barrel and has to be taken apart to even find it! I hadn't even noticed it for years! Was the placement dictated by regulation or law as it doesn't seem uniform~Eric Attached Thumbnails

04-11-2015, 03:57 PM	#26
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,283 Thanks: 7,007 Thanked 2,476 Times in 1,319 Posts	Eric, if I'm not mistaken, it's up to the importer where and how lightly to stamp them. There are guidelines, I think, dictating font size and perhaps more. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

04-11-2015, 04:37 PM	#29
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Found it http://rockislandauction.blogspot.co...m_medium=email tks Attached Thumbnails

04-05-2015, 10:40 PM	#21
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	I take that to mean that Ed still has no carbine? Jack

04-06-2015, 03:31 PM	#23
Diver6106 User Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Mt. Vernon VA Posts: 244 Thanks: 1,417 Thanked 117 Times in 75 Posts	Didn't the carbines all have a grip safety? Is the left grip cut to take a safety? Anyway, a nice long barreled Luger.

04-11-2015, 04:17 PM	#27
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Dave I have to admit, I don't know. My 1902 chubby has 'GERMANY'????? There has to be some law somewhere! Research time!!

04-11-2015, 04:33 PM	#28
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	My Fault. Mine are not import marks. Mearly the county of origin. The importer marks are deadly as to value. You don't want his name on your gun!! I just posted this article in my section. Tks As Always!!

04-12-2015, 11:05 AM	#30
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 474 Thanks: 82 Thanked 117 Times in 79 Posts	i think export stamp and importer stamping is being mixed up

04-19-2015, 03:57 PM	#31
Anfanger User Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Near Cincinnati Posts: 23 Thanks: 93 Thanked 22 Times in 9 Posts	Kenyon & Jones references Photos and information in two well known Luger references, (Kenyon and Jones), both show the 1920 Carbine, Less Forearm, as posted by Eric. Also posted by Eric are the threads from landofborchardt.com, with this quote: "The Luger carbine reappeared in the 1920's, but as a new model parts gun, assembled by DWM/BKIW from WW1 and other commercial surplus Luger parts, being offered in a wide variety of configurations, mostly with mismatched serial numbers, being advertised in many 1920 American sales catalogs." With respect, and understanding that this thread got highjacked talking about Ed's carbine, could the focus return to the original thread? There is a lot of info in the above quote, and it all may apply to the topic of the original thread: "reappeared in the 1920's" "new model parts gun" "assembled from...WW1 and other commercial surplus luger parts" "wide variety of configurations" "mostly mismatched serial numbers" Books can and do have errors. Here are two authors, still being referenced by Luger collectors, both with correlating evidence to the existence of a 1920 Carbine, Less Forearm. I have not fired mine to know if it functions properly without the forearm bar soldered to the front of the frame, but I think it will based on info in the Jones book, (see below). I have compared its condition and witness mark with several other Lugers that are in my collection, and feel that the witness mark is authentic and correct, and I'm not convinced that the barrel was replaced. Referring to "Luger Variations", by Jones, on pg 30 there is a table showing all the different spring criteria. This chart was posted by Sheepherder a couple days ago for GT who is working on mainsprings. This table makes reference to the differences between springs in carbines with and without forearms. The carbine (w/ no forearm), has a spring with 51-54 pounds required for complete compression. This value is in line with the poundage of all other listed lugers, except the carbine with forearm, which is roughly half, at 23 pounds. At the bottom of the table is the following note, that explains this: "Note: The 1920 Carbine (with forearm) has an auxiliary recoil spring in the wooden forearm, and the two springs combined have the correct poundage (51)." I will continue to search the forum for info about carbines without forearms, and welcome those references if someone has them. If someone else has one these, please let me know. I have looked at page 98 (P08 Carbine) of the commercial database, and there is one listed, S/N3 as "no forend", but it has an artillery style barrel and sight. Also on the carbine list is S/N 93, "no forestock". There is also S/N 1896k, carbine style barrel, no forend. S/N 8939t has 11 3/4" barrel and ramp sight. Should there be newer, published in a reference book information regarding this variation, the "1920 Carbine, Less Forearm", I would like to learn of it. Many thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, and to all of us who continue to study and learn about these fascinating firearms. __________________ "So row well, and live." ~Quintus Arrius

04-19-2015, 04:12 PM	#32
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	John, Very well done! You have pretty much covered this subject. Not much is put together on civilian guns..No books I know of. Charles Whittaker at the Land of Borchardt is a very fine Gentleman and very knowledgeable. Good job! The only other variations I know of might be the Pacific Arms guns. I actually owned a Pacific Arms Carbine with a forearm once years ago..They likely made or put together long barreled guns with and without forearms. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-25-2015, 10:19 PM	#33
Dick Herman User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 302 Thanks: 496 Thanked 354 Times in 138 Posts	Another 1920 Carbine W/O Fore Stock I was traveling when this thread was posted, so I was unable to put in my 2 cents. For what it is worth here is my observation and opinion. Both the Jones and Kenyon reference books have been around for a very long time. Their information is useful and has been used and accepted be more contemporary authors. The 1920ish Luger carbine without a fore stock has been referenced since a time when there were fewer collectors and values that did not encourage counterfeiting. One of the reasons for the fore stock spring assist on the 1902 carbines was the weaker leaf main spring. Due to the reciprocating mass of the 1902 carbine barrel and toggle top assembly the leaf main spring did not provide enough force for complete closure. The fore stock spring assist provided the additional force for complete battery closure. The later coil main spring provided enough force for complete battery. What I am presenting here is a Model 1923ish Commercial American Eagle Carbine without a fore stock. The frame is marked Safe and the extractor is marked Loaded. The 11 3/4" Barrel with an adjustable rear sight is 7.65mm Parabellum. As stated above there is no Fore Stock. The serial number is 91273. Small parts have matching numbers. Proof marks are C/N. Country of origin, Germany, is marked in several places. Last edited by Dick Herman; 04-25-2015 at 10:22 PM. Reason: Add Pictures

04-25-2015, 10:27 PM	#34
Dick Herman User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 302 Thanks: 496 Thanked 354 Times in 138 Posts	1920 Carbine W/O Fore Stock 1920 Carbine W/O Fore Stock Attached Thumbnails

04-25-2015, 10:32 PM	#35
Dick Herman User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 302 Thanks: 496 Thanked 354 Times in 138 Posts	1920 Carbine with out fore stock 1920 Carbine with out fore stock Attached Thumbnails

04-25-2015, 10:33 PM	#36
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Perfect and Beautiful!!!! Nice Score!!! etc. Each of them have story resurrecting in the turbulant Weimer era~How many were assembled is anyone guess! Mine #3231t Go figure!

04-25-2015, 11:29 PM	#37
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	I don't own an 02 for comparison~ What Differences are the between the 2 and are part interchangeable if any as pats 'what parts' have been used? Eric

04-25-2015, 11:33 PM	#38
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Hi Dick, According to Jan Still's Weimar Lugers, S#91237 was made in 1921. It is classified as a '20DWM Commercial'. It falls into the Stoeger 2000 gun 'Safe and Loaded' contract. Approximately #89700 to #91700. It must have been a special order to have a factory numbered barrel (not added by Stoeger in the US, as most are). Super nice and rare, Safe and Loaded American Eagle long barrel with stock. Thank you for showing it. __________________ Mike C.