Japanese "test" luger on Greg Martin Auction - Page 2

Conny · 01-19-2011, 10:38 AM

Thanks for the response Norme.

Mauser720 · 01-19-2011, 12:44 PM

The Imperial Seal of Japan consisted of a Chrysanthemum with 16 petals. And it was this "mum" that is found on the receivers of their rifles. (Surrendered weapons had the mum ground off or chisel marked out. Captured weapons will usually have this mark intact.) Plus, the tips of the individual petals were rounded, and not indented as they are in this design. The Imperial Japanes were very strict about how and where this mark was to be used. It's use was even spelled out in their constitution at the time.

The five-petaled flower on the receiver is odd. Does anyone know whether this type of flower blossom was ever used on any Imperial Japanese weapon?

Now look at the anchor behind this blossom. Notice that at the top of the anchor, there is a cross-bar. At the end of the bar that is at the bottom of the picture, you can see there is a hole, apparently for the attachement of a rope or line.

Now look at the top end of this same bar and you will see that this hole is missing. Instead, the "engraving" tapers off into two distinct pointed lines. In my opinion, this lack of quality is not what one would expect from a legitimate DWM produced firearm.

alanint · 01-19-2011, 04:42 PM

It is also possible that it was simply not filled in all the way with the white paint. In any event there are enough red flags on this one to seriously doubt its authenticity.

nukem556 · 01-19-2011, 06:51 PM

the most suspicious thing to my amateur eyes that everytime one of these rare "variations" surface, they're in near mint, museum condition.....c'mon..I mean what are the odds?

the gunman · 01-19-2011, 08:37 PM

' Slim to None"

drbuster · 01-19-2011, 09:29 PM

Norm just brings up ONE of the way out markings that just scream: FAKE!!

sheepherder · 01-19-2011, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drbuster

Note, for those not familiar with previous discussion, the welded up stock lug area shown in the last photograph. We who examined this piece couldn't figure out why the mechanic who made this just didn't file off the stock lug instead of painstakingly welding it up, buffing and blueing it, amazing!

Would a filed lug have the same contour as a welded-up backstrap???

drbuster · 01-19-2011, 10:01 PM

No, it would be noticeably flatter.

SIGP2101 · 01-20-2011, 12:48 PM

In this photo - front of the frame clearly looks re-machined. Flat is so visible and rails on the frame and slide are not flash with each other. Indicates material being removed.
Is it just me or somebody else see the same.

Back of the frame also looks re-surfaced to me.

John Sabato · 01-20-2011, 04:07 PM

Joe, I tend to think the same thing when I see that "flat" on the front of a frame, but others have pointed out that this phenomenon does appear in some very legitimate version of the Luger. The slide sticking out past the frame also makes me suspicious of a number change... Just my $0.02

What I REALLY like about this particular gun is the ultra craftsmanship of the grips. Notice how really nice and close the fit is on the back of the frame in the photo above? This is Absolutely exquisite hand work by DWM on these grips! They sure "don't make 'em like the used to!" --Do they?

John Sabato · 01-20-2011, 05:08 PM

Nice theory Ben, but you have misinterpreted the working engineering. The zip tie holding the breechblock keeps it from coming completely into battery. The breechblock held back would in-turn keep the toggle from fully closing. The slightly open toggle would restrain the slide from coming fully forward so that its front edge would be behind the front of the frame and not sticking out in front of the frame. Watch the Luger animation on our home page a few times & you might see why the relationship of the moving parts would result in this condition.

sheepherder · 01-20-2011, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Joe, I tend to think the same thing when I see that "flat" on the front of a frame, but others have pointed out that this phenomenon does appear in some very legitimate version of the Luger.

Also on VOPO refurbs. My P38 has such a flat on the frame front...but it is ground flat, not milled...

I would like to see a good frontal pic of the frame flat/serial area...

drbuster · 01-20-2011, 06:49 PM

Despite all these red flags, some hopeful telephone bidder paid $11,750 for this fantasy luger!

Mauser720 · 01-20-2011, 08:07 PM

In the new Gortz-Sturgess book set, "Pistole Parabellum" they do list in the index "Japanese" and "Foreign Service 7.65mm P.08s for, (pages) 826, 726"

But when you go to these pages, they have no mention of "Japanese" and have nothing to do with such pistols either. I tried going forward and backward from these two page numbers, and still could not find anything to Japanese Lugers.

So I tried going to the Table of Contents in the front of the set, and looking at those subjects listed around pages 726 and 826 and still drew a blank.

It certainly appears that they intended to have something related to Japanese Lugers, but I have not been able to find it in their book. Maybe it is in there somewhere and I am just overlooking it.

Has anyone been able to find where the Japanese Lugers are actually covered in the Gortz-Sturgess book?

Thanks.

drbuster · 01-20-2011, 08:28 PM

Ron, the only recent reference to Japanese lugers is on page 274-75 of Hallock and van de Kant's Mauser Parabellum, as I mentioned above. I have seen from time to time reference to early Japanese test lugers but always with poor photos, no provenence and you are left to draw your own conclusions (negative).

01-19-2011, 10:38 AM	#21
Conny User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Culpeper, Va. Posts: 279 Thanks: 0 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	Thanks for the response Norme. __________________ Rangers Lead the Way, Duane Leiker

01-19-2011, 12:44 PM	#22
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	The Imperial Seal of Japan consisted of a Chrysanthemum with 16 petals. And it was this "mum" that is found on the receivers of their rifles. (Surrendered weapons had the mum ground off or chisel marked out. Captured weapons will usually have this mark intact.) Plus, the tips of the individual petals were rounded, and not indented as they are in this design. The Imperial Japanes were very strict about how and where this mark was to be used. It's use was even spelled out in their constitution at the time. The five-petaled flower on the receiver is odd. Does anyone know whether this type of flower blossom was ever used on any Imperial Japanese weapon? Now look at the anchor behind this blossom. Notice that at the top of the anchor, there is a cross-bar. At the end of the bar that is at the bottom of the picture, you can see there is a hole, apparently for the attachement of a rope or line. Now look at the top end of this same bar and you will see that this hole is missing. Instead, the "engraving" tapers off into two distinct pointed lines. In my opinion, this lack of quality is not what one would expect from a legitimate DWM produced firearm. __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it." Last edited by Mauser720; 01-20-2011 at 01:53 PM.

01-20-2011, 04:07 PM	#30
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Joe, I tend to think the same thing when I see that "flat" on the front of a frame, but others have pointed out that this phenomenon does appear in some very legitimate version of the Luger. The slide sticking out past the frame also makes me suspicious of a number change... Just my $0.02 What I REALLY like about this particular gun is the ultra craftsmanship of the grips. Notice how really nice and close the fit is on the back of the frame in the photo above? This is Absolutely exquisite hand work by DWM on these grips! They sure "don't make 'em like the used to!" --Do they? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-20-2011, 05:08 PM	#31
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Nice theory Ben, but you have misinterpreted the working engineering. The zip tie holding the breechblock keeps it from coming completely into battery. The breechblock held back would in-turn keep the toggle from fully closing. The slightly open toggle would restrain the slide from coming fully forward so that its front edge would be behind the front of the frame and not sticking out in front of the frame. Watch the Luger animation on our home page a few times & you might see why the relationship of the moving parts would result in this condition. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-20-2011, 08:07 PM	#34
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	In the new Gortz-Sturgess book set, "Pistole Parabellum" they do list in the index "Japanese" and "Foreign Service 7.65mm P.08s for, (pages) 826, 726" But when you go to these pages, they have no mention of "Japanese" and have nothing to do with such pistols either. I tried going forward and backward from these two page numbers, and still could not find anything to Japanese Lugers. So I tried going to the Table of Contents in the front of the set, and looking at those subjects listed around pages 726 and 826 and still drew a blank. It certainly appears that they intended to have something related to Japanese Lugers, but I have not been able to find it in their book. Maybe it is in there somewhere and I am just overlooking it. Has anyone been able to find where the Japanese Lugers are actually covered in the Gortz-Sturgess book? Thanks. __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

01-19-2011, 04:42 PM	#23
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	It is also possible that it was simply not filled in all the way with the white paint. In any event there are enough red flags on this one to seriously doubt its authenticity.

01-19-2011, 06:51 PM	#24
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	the most suspicious thing to my amateur eyes that everytime one of these rare "variations" surface, they're in near mint, museum condition.....c'mon..I mean what are the odds?

01-19-2011, 08:37 PM	#25
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	' Slim to None"

01-19-2011, 09:29 PM	#26
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Norm just brings up ONE of the way out markings that just scream: FAKE!!

01-19-2011, 10:01 PM	#28
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	No, it would be noticeably flatter.

01-20-2011, 12:48 PM	#29
SIGP2101 User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 256 Thanks: 74 Thanked 67 Times in 32 Posts	In this photo - front of the frame clearly looks re-machined. Flat is so visible and rails on the frame and slide are not flash with each other. Indicates material being removed. Is it just me or somebody else see the same. Back of the frame also looks re-surfaced to me.

01-20-2011, 06:49 PM	#33
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Despite all these red flags, some hopeful telephone bidder paid $11,750 for this fantasy luger!

01-20-2011, 08:28 PM	#35
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Ron, the only recent reference to Japanese lugers is on page 274-75 of Hallock and van de Kant's Mauser Parabellum, as I mentioned above. I have seen from time to time reference to early Japanese test lugers but always with poor photos, no provenence and you are left to draw your own conclusions (negative).