P-08 ????

stanley miller · 12-01-2002, 06:31 PM

I was given a P-08 Luger handgun by a friend of mine who happens to be a gun collector. It was given to him also, but he nor I was able to distinguish the weapons' origin. This piece has the DWM inscription on the toggle. Because it was supposidly in a fire or in an explosion, alot of the markings are very hard to distinguish. I cleaned it up as best that I could and was able to get a serial # from the frame below the barrel, that being 4857. The number 57 appears at least 5 times on various parts, including the barrel and the toggle. Under the serial # is the letter m. I also distinguish a possible crown/n on the bottom side of the barrel above the #57.The word GESICHERT is present on the safety. These are the only markings that I have been able to find. The overall length of the weapon is 8 1/4 inches. It appears that the barrel length is 3 inches.Can someone please help me identify the age and origine of this weapon.

drbuster · 12-01-2002, 07:08 PM

You most probably have a 1920 commercial DWM made after the first world war in quantity. Most were made for export and the piece should have "germany" somewhere stamped on it. This fire damaged relic should probably become a shooter. Worth about $400-600 IMO.

stanley miller · 12-01-2002, 08:04 PM

Thank you so much for the reply. I did neglect to mention that, on the right hand side of the outer casing, I did manage to distinguish "many". I presumed that this probably was the last four letters of Germany. The letter m that is found just under the serial number, does this signify a Mauser?

Roadkill · 12-01-2002, 08:26 PM

Welcome to the forum, sir. The DWM means "Deutsche Waffen und Munititions", this is the maker. Th "m" below the serial # is the block series. They were made in blocks using the sns up to a designated number under "a" block, then again the same numbers using "b" block, ect. It kept the serial numbers manageable and possibly estreamlined the production process by using the repeat numbers on the small parts. Mauser used the code "byf". The collector folks here can provide much more detailed info, they really know their Lugers. I just like to shoot them.

rk

Doubs · 12-01-2002, 09:14 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Roadkill:
<strong>The DWM means "Deutsche Waffen und Munititions", this is the maker. rk</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just a minor correction: It should be "Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken". The whole thing translates to: "German Arms and Munitions Manufacturers".

The fact that you do not mention a date on the receiver plus the C/N commercial proof on the barrel plus the suffix letter "m" plus the barrel length being less than 100mm is a pretty good indication that it's a post-WW1 "commercial" DWM Luger. Further indicators would include a second C/N proof mark on the left forward side of the slide (just in front of the sideplate) and the last two digits of the serial number being stamped on the underside of the sideplate and the locking bolt (take-down lever)in a commercial manner. The toggle train will be free of serial numbers except for the last two digits on the rear toggle at the very back of the toggle behind the rear sight. The sear bar and safety lever will also be unmarked.

However, IF the pistol is a WW1 military re-work with a replacement barrel in .30 caliber, the top of the receiver will likely show uneven flats from having the date ground off and the sideplate and locking bolt will have the last two digits of the serial number stamped on the side rather than underneath. The toggle train, extractor, safety lever and sear bar will also be marked. The breechblock will have the last two serial number digits on the side but unseen unless the toggle train is removed from the slide. It would still be considered a "commercial" pistol and this variation (in both new manufacture and reworked military from the post-WW1 era) is the most common Luger in existence. They have little collector value at this time.

stanley miller · 12-01-2002, 11:17 PM

Thank you for the welcome and the information. Upon further review, I faintly can make out the crown/n on the left forward side of the slide, just forward of the slide plate. The last two digits of the serial number are located on the rear toggle at the very back of the toggle behind the rear sight. I feel sure that I do have a post w.w.1 commercial model. Although it is a common version of this beautiful weapon, I am still very proud to own it. My aim is to make a display model out of it. It is jammed and non functional at this time. All I really need are a set of handgrips for this model, since they were most certainly lost due to the fire. The story that I was told , by my friend who gave me the weapon, which is the story that he was given when he aquired it, is that it was found in the sand desert in North Africa during or toward the end of W.W.II. I have no way to confirm this story. But could it be possible?? Thanks again for the help and thank you for allowing me into your forum.

stanley miller · 12-02-2002, 07:43 AM

Amazing!! Thank you for the information. Can anyone help me locate a pair of hand grips? I hate to ask for something else since you have been so helpful. Thanks so VERY much to all of you that responded. stan

Edward Tinker · 12-02-2002, 11:11 AM

Stanley,

You have many options.

1. Buy reproduction grips, these can be bought at Sarco, Numrich Arms, Tom Heller probably has some (link to your left at http://www.lugerforum.com/lugerlink.html

2. Buy repro from e-bay or other gun auctions sites

3. Buy real old ones, they can get expensive

4. Hugh Clark finishes some of the repro ones and makes them fit perfectly, and this is a slight concern, many of the repro ones don't fit worth a darn.

saxman · 12-02-2002, 01:14 PM

Your P.08 may be 'jammed and inoperative' now, but unless it has rusted to a solid mass, it should still be possible to get it apart and return it to a functioning piece. In any event, you should treat this pistol as a loaded weapon and capable of discharging until you have proved that it is not.

stanley miller · 12-02-2002, 04:09 PM

It is not rusted into a solid mass. I have made some progress, with the help of penetrating oil, to loosen up the toggle function. But it still will only withdraw approx. 1 inch. I have been able to remove most of the rust, very carefully using rust removing solvent, from a reblueing kit, and by using very fine steel wool. I have spoken to a local gunsmith who says that he beleives that he can un-jam it for me. So it is something that I will be looking at having done in the near future. I'm not looking to sell the weapon, but rather to keep it as a war relic. Finding out some of the history behind not only my Luger, but Luger handguns in general, has only peaked my interest. I'm glad to find your forum so that I can be connected with other interested people like myself. Thanks

John Sabato · 12-02-2002, 04:39 PM

If you can move the toggle a whole inch, does the slide move back in the frame during this movement?

If the slide moves even a half inch, you should be able to open the takedown lever and remove the upper half... If you can't, then keep using penetration oil until you can.

If you use plenty of penetration oil and let it soak a couple of days you should be able to get slide movement by holding the frame in your hand and striking the muzzle with a large rubber mallet that will cause no harm. Once it moves you are on your way to disassembly...

The gunsmith will only be necessary if you don't feel like taking your time and doing the work yourself.

Keep at it and let us know how you make out.

Roadkill · 12-02-2002, 07:48 PM

Got a buddy whose truck burned up. Big white Ford 250 4wd, something to do with those CBs shorting out (plus alcohol of course) point is he left his 1911A1 in the truck when we went in the bar, we dug it out from the junk yard later, took a lot of work cause the rounds exploded and bent the frame, but I think he still shoots it. I told him not to. It took a lot of pressure to break the slide loose. I learned from him that a good friend is one who will post your bail and get you out of jail. Your BEST friend though is the one sitting on the cot beside you in jail saying "boy, we really screwed up this time".

rk

stanley miller · 12-02-2002, 08:50 PM

after hearing that story, i feel more confident about restoring my little peice of history. Maybe your buddy will give me some pointers. By the way, I am soaking the gun in penetrating oil as we speek. I am going to let it soak for a few days and then take a shot at unlocking it. thank you Mr. Sabato for the pointers. If anyone has any more ideas, please dont be afraid to pass them along.I promise not to get upset. thanks

Roadkill · 12-02-2002, 09:13 PM

One more suggestion, get a wooden dowel that will fit down the bore but not too tight, use a small rubber mallet and slowly knock the bolt to the rear. This will put the more pressure on the bolt face to slide to the rear than you can do by pulling the toggle up. After you are sure there isn't a round in the chamber, put some heat on it. Works wonders on rusted nuts.

rk

sidhartha · 12-03-2002, 02:02 AM

There is a product called Kroil that is used to penetrate rusty bolts. It works wonders. I have never had to use it on a gun yet, but last year I poured some in a motorcycle engine that was siezed. Let it set a few days and it broke the piston free.

Thor · 12-03-2002, 04:10 AM

I use Kroil all the time on Lugers, good stuff!

Roadkill · 12-03-2002, 07:55 AM

Kroil? Never heard of that. You can't live in Alabama and not deal with rusted nuts, locked up lawnmower, chain saw, and 4 wheeler engines. We do take better care of our guns though. More info, please.

rk

Thor · 12-03-2002, 09:52 AM

Kroil Oil from Brownells CLICK HERE TO ACCESS

The Oil That Creeps
A lubricating and penetrating oil that flows into the tiniest of crevices, lifts away lead and copper jacket fouling, frees up super-tight barrels, loosens frozen screws and bolts. Dissolves dried grease and oil, displaces water, without harming metal. Works great for getting underneath and loosening built-up carbon, copper and lead fouling in shotgun, rifle and pistol barrels.
SPECS: 8 fl.oz (236ml) can.

John Sabato · 12-03-2002, 11:48 AM

Stanley,

Mr. Sabato is my Dad (83 at his last birthday). You can just call me John.

You said the gun was soaking in penetrating oil... if it is not the whole gun, make sure that at least the upper half (like including the magazine catch) is down in the oil to insure that that all the hard working and moving parts are included in the soak...

The hardwood dowel of appropriate size down the muzzle pounded with the heavy rubber mallet should get the toggle working in short order.

If the takedown lever is frozen, make sure you work it gently down (clockwise) with the toggle held in the rear position.

If you lived closeby, I would be happy to assist you in the disassembly of this old soldier. Unless the chamber and barrel are really corroded, I would venture to say that this piece will eventually be shootable...

Good luck again and keep us informed on your progress... photos would be nice too.

stanley miller · 12-03-2002, 12:14 PM

Thanks guys, I am going to be on the lookout for Kroil. It sounds like it might come in handy for a lot of things. I live in the northwest part of Florida, near Pensacola. So I can relate to the effects of heat and most of all humidity on just about everything, including myself. John, when you say to gently move the takedown lever down, clockwise, with the toggle in the rear position. Could you be more specific to what "toggle in the rear position" is referring to? I just want to make sure that we are on the same page. Remember, you are dealing with an amateur here. But I am usually a quick study, and again, I do appreciate the help

12-01-2002, 06:31 PM	#1
stanley miller User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: crestview florida Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	P-08 ???? I was given a P-08 Luger handgun by a friend of mine who happens to be a gun collector. It was given to him also, but he nor I was able to distinguish the weapons' origin. This piece has the DWM inscription on the toggle. Because it was supposidly in a fire or in an explosion, alot of the markings are very hard to distinguish. I cleaned it up as best that I could and was able to get a serial # from the frame below the barrel, that being 4857. The number 57 appears at least 5 times on various parts, including the barrel and the toggle. Under the serial # is the letter m. I also distinguish a possible crown/n on the bottom side of the barrel above the #57.The word GESICHERT is present on the safety. These are the only markings that I have been able to find. The overall length of the weapon is 8 1/4 inches. It appears that the barrel length is 3 inches.Can someone please help me identify the age and origine of this weapon.

12-02-2002, 11:11 AM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Stanley, You have many options. 1. Buy reproduction grips, these can be bought at Sarco, Numrich Arms, Tom Heller probably has some (link to your left at http://www.lugerforum.com/lugerlink.html 2. Buy repro from e-bay or other gun auctions sites 3. Buy real old ones, they can get expensive 4. Hugh Clark finishes some of the repro ones and makes them fit perfectly, and this is a slight concern, many of the repro ones don't fit worth a darn. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-02-2002, 01:14 PM	#9
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Your P.08 may be 'jammed and inoperative' now, but unless it has rusted to a solid mass, it should still be possible to get it apart and return it to a functioning piece. In any event, you should treat this pistol as a loaded weapon and capable of discharging until you have proved that it is not. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

12-02-2002, 04:39 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	If you can move the toggle a whole inch, does the slide move back in the frame during this movement? If the slide moves even a half inch, you should be able to open the takedown lever and remove the upper half... If you can't, then keep using penetration oil until you can. If you use plenty of penetration oil and let it soak a couple of days you should be able to get slide movement by holding the frame in your hand and striking the muzzle with a large rubber mallet that will cause no harm. Once it moves you are on your way to disassembly... The gunsmith will only be necessary if you don't feel like taking your time and doing the work yourself. Keep at it and let us know how you make out. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-03-2002, 02:02 AM	#15
sidhartha User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 52 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	There is a product called Kroil that is used to penetrate rusty bolts. It works wonders. I have never had to use it on a gun yet, but last year I poured some in a motorcycle engine that was siezed. Let it set a few days and it broke the piston free. __________________ "A little lemon and seltzer will remove ink stains after you've been fingerprinted. " -Martha Stewart

12-01-2002, 07:08 PM	#2
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	You most probably have a 1920 commercial DWM made after the first world war in quantity. Most were made for export and the piece should have "germany" somewhere stamped on it. This fire damaged relic should probably become a shooter. Worth about $400-600 IMO.

12-01-2002, 08:04 PM	#3
stanley miller User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: crestview florida Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you so much for the reply. I did neglect to mention that, on the right hand side of the outer casing, I did manage to distinguish "many". I presumed that this probably was the last four letters of Germany. The letter m that is found just under the serial number, does this signify a Mauser?

12-01-2002, 08:26 PM	#4
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Welcome to the forum, sir. The DWM means "Deutsche Waffen und Munititions", this is the maker. Th "m" below the serial # is the block series. They were made in blocks using the sns up to a designated number under "a" block, then again the same numbers using "b" block, ect. It kept the serial numbers manageable and possibly estreamlined the production process by using the repeat numbers on the small parts. Mauser used the code "byf". The collector folks here can provide much more detailed info, they really know their Lugers. I just like to shoot them. rk

12-01-2002, 09:14 PM	#5
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Roadkill: <strong>The DWM means "Deutsche Waffen und Munititions", this is the maker. rk</strong><hr></blockquote> Just a minor correction: It should be "Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken". The whole thing translates to: "German Arms and Munitions Manufacturers". The fact that you do not mention a date on the receiver plus the C/N commercial proof on the barrel plus the suffix letter "m" plus the barrel length being less than 100mm is a pretty good indication that it's a post-WW1 "commercial" DWM Luger. Further indicators would include a second C/N proof mark on the left forward side of the slide (just in front of the sideplate) and the last two digits of the serial number being stamped on the underside of the sideplate and the locking bolt (take-down lever)in a commercial manner. The toggle train will be free of serial numbers except for the last two digits on the rear toggle at the very back of the toggle behind the rear sight. The sear bar and safety lever will also be unmarked. However, IF the pistol is a WW1 military re-work with a replacement barrel in .30 caliber, the top of the receiver will likely show uneven flats from having the date ground off and the sideplate and locking bolt will have the last two digits of the serial number stamped on the side rather than underneath. The toggle train, extractor, safety lever and sear bar will also be marked. The breechblock will have the last two serial number digits on the side but unseen unless the toggle train is removed from the slide. It would still be considered a "commercial" pistol and this variation (in both new manufacture and reworked military from the post-WW1 era) is the most common Luger in existence. They have little collector value at this time.

12-01-2002, 11:17 PM	#6
stanley miller User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: crestview florida Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you for the welcome and the information. Upon further review, I faintly can make out the crown/n on the left forward side of the slide, just forward of the slide plate. The last two digits of the serial number are located on the rear toggle at the very back of the toggle behind the rear sight. I feel sure that I do have a post w.w.1 commercial model. Although it is a common version of this beautiful weapon, I am still very proud to own it. My aim is to make a display model out of it. It is jammed and non functional at this time. All I really need are a set of handgrips for this model, since they were most certainly lost due to the fire. The story that I was told , by my friend who gave me the weapon, which is the story that he was given when he aquired it, is that it was found in the sand desert in North Africa during or toward the end of W.W.II. I have no way to confirm this story. But could it be possible?? Thanks again for the help and thank you for allowing me into your forum.

12-02-2002, 07:43 AM	#7
stanley miller User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: crestview florida Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Amazing!! Thank you for the information. Can anyone help me locate a pair of hand grips? I hate to ask for something else since you have been so helpful. Thanks so VERY much to all of you that responded. stan

12-02-2002, 04:09 PM	#10
stanley miller User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: crestview florida Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It is not rusted into a solid mass. I have made some progress, with the help of penetrating oil, to loosen up the toggle function. But it still will only withdraw approx. 1 inch. I have been able to remove most of the rust, very carefully using rust removing solvent, from a reblueing kit, and by using very fine steel wool. I have spoken to a local gunsmith who says that he beleives that he can un-jam it for me. So it is something that I will be looking at having done in the near future. I'm not looking to sell the weapon, but rather to keep it as a war relic. Finding out some of the history behind not only my Luger, but Luger handguns in general, has only peaked my interest. I'm glad to find your forum so that I can be connected with other interested people like myself. Thanks

12-02-2002, 07:48 PM	#12
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Got a buddy whose truck burned up. Big white Ford 250 4wd, something to do with those CBs shorting out (plus alcohol of course) point is he left his 1911A1 in the truck when we went in the bar, we dug it out from the junk yard later, took a lot of work cause the rounds exploded and bent the frame, but I think he still shoots it. I told him not to. It took a lot of pressure to break the slide loose. I learned from him that a good friend is one who will post your bail and get you out of jail. Your BEST friend though is the one sitting on the cot beside you in jail saying "boy, we really screwed up this time". rk

12-02-2002, 08:50 PM	#13
stanley miller User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: crestview florida Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	after hearing that story, i feel more confident about restoring my little peice of history. Maybe your buddy will give me some pointers. By the way, I am soaking the gun in penetrating oil as we speek. I am going to let it soak for a few days and then take a shot at unlocking it. thank you Mr. Sabato for the pointers. If anyone has any more ideas, please dont be afraid to pass them along.I promise not to get upset. thanks

12-02-2002, 09:13 PM	#14
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	One more suggestion, get a wooden dowel that will fit down the bore but not too tight, use a small rubber mallet and slowly knock the bolt to the rear. This will put the more pressure on the bolt face to slide to the rear than you can do by pulling the toggle up. After you are sure there isn't a round in the chamber, put some heat on it. Works wonders on rusted nuts. rk

12-03-2002, 04:10 AM	#16
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	I use Kroil all the time on Lugers, good stuff! __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

12-03-2002, 07:55 AM	#17
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Kroil? Never heard of that. You can't live in Alabama and not deal with rusted nuts, locked up lawnmower, chain saw, and 4 wheeler engines. We do take better care of our guns though. More info, please. rk

12-03-2002, 09:52 AM	#18
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Kroil Oil from Brownells CLICK HERE TO ACCESS The Oil That Creeps A lubricating and penetrating oil that flows into the tiniest of crevices, lifts away lead and copper jacket fouling, frees up super-tight barrels, loosens frozen screws and bolts. Dissolves dried grease and oil, displaces water, without harming metal. Works great for getting underneath and loosening built-up carbon, copper and lead fouling in shotgun, rifle and pistol barrels. SPECS: 8 fl.oz (236ml) can. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

12-03-2002, 11:48 AM	#19
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Stanley, Mr. Sabato is my Dad (83 at his last birthday). You can just call me John. You said the gun was soaking in penetrating oil... if it is not the whole gun, make sure that at least the upper half (like including the magazine catch) is down in the oil to insure that that all the hard working and moving parts are included in the soak... The hardwood dowel of appropriate size down the muzzle pounded with the heavy rubber mallet should get the toggle working in short order. If the takedown lever is frozen, make sure you work it gently down (clockwise) with the toggle held in the rear position. If you lived closeby, I would be happy to assist you in the disassembly of this old soldier. Unless the chamber and barrel are really corroded, I would venture to say that this piece will eventually be shootable... Good luck again and keep us informed on your progress... photos would be nice too. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-03-2002, 12:14 PM	#20
stanley miller User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: crestview florida Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks guys, I am going to be on the lookout for Kroil. It sounds like it might come in handy for a lot of things. I live in the northwest part of Florida, near Pensacola. So I can relate to the effects of heat and most of all humidity on just about everything, including myself. John, when you say to gently move the takedown lever down, clockwise, with the toggle in the rear position. Could you be more specific to what "toggle in the rear position" is referring to? I just want to make sure that we are on the same page. Remember, you are dealing with an amateur here. But I am usually a quick study, and again, I do appreciate the help