my profile |
register |
faq |
search upload photo | donate | calendar |
07-15-2002, 06:15 PM | #1 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 146
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
|
Mystery Gun
I was in an Austin gun shop the other day and saw a funny looking Luger. Unfortunately, I didn't think about asking you guys about it at the time and didn't have the presence of mind to write down serial number and proof marks, etc. The first thing I noticed was that it had the Swiss cross on the toggle, but the frame was shaped more the standard P08 -- with more of a curve on the grip than the pictures I've seen of Swiss Lugers. The chamber was unmarked; the safety was labeled "Gesichert." The gun appeared to be matching, but one thing that was unusual to me: on the frame, under the barrel, the word "GERMANY" appeared under the serial number. Is this just a re-numbered parts gun? (They wanted $999.)
|
07-15-2002, 07:34 PM | #2 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
|
07-15-2002, 08:03 PM | #3 |
Moderator
Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Arizona/Colorado
Posts: 7,772
Thanks: 4,942
Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts
|
Don, Perhaps this was a German made Swiss pistol. DWM made many of these before the Swiss took up production of the Swiss Luger. GERMANY is simply an export mark to an English speaking country and this could have have been about the weimar period. May have been a sleeper..PPays to take a close look. Jerry Burney
__________________
Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know." |
07-16-2002, 04:09 AM | #4 |
Moderator
2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso
Posts: 7,022
Thanks: 1,090
Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts
|
Don
Did your "Mystery Luger" look something like the photo below? I have only seen or heard about few Lugers with the toggle marked with the Swiss cross, but I am sure there are more out there. Thor posted a picture of one not too long ago. If so marked, my guess the Luger that you observed might be referred to loosely as a "1920 Swiss Commercial". There are so darned many talented Swiss gunsmiths that in the '20s refurbishing/reworking Lugers was almost a cottage industry (may still be so today!). Some, such as Fluckiger, had enough pride in their product (or as a marketing device) to use an identifying "trademark" on the pieces they produced. Evidently at least one chose to mark the toggles with the Swiss cross. The example I have started out life as a 1908 model. It was modified by welding up the lower frame web to add a grip safety and spring, with a corresponding thumb safety. The anomaly is that while this frame is also "Gesichert" marked, it is still marked in the upper position and is actually "off safe" when this marking is exposed! When the thumb safety was swapped out for one that worked with the grip safety, the gunsmith did not go the extra step to remark the frame. Other than that, it is nicely done and quite a conversation piece. [img]smile.gif[/img] Oh, by the way, it is not "Germany" marked.
__________________
If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction |
07-16-2002, 03:33 PM | #5 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow
Posts: 1,457
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
|
Ron, good picture. I found it in Coatanzo's book, he says it is found on the middle toggle on the 1920 Swiss model, but the number he gives for the description is that of a chamber marking?? He calls it the Geneva Cross in sunburst.
__________________
Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull |
07-16-2002, 09:28 PM | #6 |
Administrator
& Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: A Little NE of Somewhere...
Posts: 2,651
Thanks: 477
Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts
|
Ron.....
You have to stop posting pictures of your pieces!!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Jeez..... I'm gon'na go broke!!! <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> (PS - Nice pice - now STOP IT!!! [img]eek.gif[/img] ) |
07-16-2002, 09:41 PM | #7 |
Moderator
2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso
Posts: 7,022
Thanks: 1,090
Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts
|
John
Guess I will have to post a pic of my early S-code HK....Oops, I forgot, I traded it for a 1900 Swiss...Oh well. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />
__________________
If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction |
07-16-2002, 09:54 PM | #8 |
Administrator
& Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: A Little NE of Somewhere...
Posts: 2,651
Thanks: 477
Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts
|
[quote]Originally posted by Ron Wood:
<strong>John Guess I will have to post a pic of my early S-code HK....Oops, I forgot, I traded it for a 1900 Swiss...Oh well. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote> Yea - well, if I hung around you - I'd be as equally corrupted..!!! LOL!!!!! [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img] BTW: Next year, can you help me out? Seriously - don't tell anyone - but I want an early Swiss with a lanyard... No kidding....!!! [img]eek.gif[/img] |
07-16-2002, 11:19 PM | #9 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 146
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
|
Thanks for all the comments. No, it did not have a grip safety, and the cross was within a shield, not a sun burst.
|
07-17-2002, 01:06 AM | #10 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 146
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
|
There is a picture of the toggle, with the cross in the shield, on a 1929 Swiss Luger on pg. 69 of "Luger Tips" by Michael Reese II. However, none of the rest of the gun in the picture resembled the piece I saw. It appeared to be a standard 9 mm P 08 frame & barrel, unlike the Swiss style frame, 7.65 caliber, and modified safety switch in the book
|
07-17-2002, 05:15 PM | #11 |
RIP
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Southeast Texas Swamp
Posts: 2,460
Thanks: 2
Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts
|
Ron,
My wife insists that you must stop posting those pictures, she's getting tired of wiping the drool off my chin and shirt front! <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
__________________
TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20! |
07-17-2002, 09:07 PM | #12 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The USA
Posts: 5,919
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
|
Hello Don,
The Swiss Bern factory made some "transitional" lugers between their 06/1924 model (a P-08 model) and their later 1929 model. This luger had the top of a 1929 on the frame of the 06/1924 model. According to Vitorrio Bobba's book, The Swiss Parabellum, these transitional lugers are quite rare... I will be home this weekend and will plan to scan a photo or two from this book.. It might be worth going back to Austin for a second look...if this gun is a Swiss transitional piece, at $ 999.00 it would be a tremendous buy... Or it might just be a "parts" gun put together from some P-08 and 1929 Bern parts. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> |
07-17-2002, 10:38 PM | #13 |
Moderator
2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso
Posts: 7,022
Thanks: 1,090
Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts
|
John D. & Hugh
OK..OK!! I quit. No more pics. I can't be responsible for broken wallets and wet shirts. Geez, it is tough being a bad influence.... <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" /> .... <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
__________________
If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction |
07-18-2002, 01:04 AM | #14 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,902
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts
|
[quote]Originally posted by Ron Wood:
<strong>John D. & Hugh OK..OK!! I quit. No more pics. I can't be responsible for broken wallets and wet shirts. Geez, it is tough being a bad influence.... <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" /> .... <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote> Ron, don't you -dare- not post any more pictures! Influence me, influence me! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> --Dwight |
07-18-2002, 01:33 AM | #15 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico
Posts: 4,583
Thanks: 958
Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts
|
__________________
Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." |
07-18-2002, 01:08 PM | #16 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Tennessee, USA
Posts: 329
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
|
[quote]Originally posted by Dwight Gruber:
<strong> Ron, don't you -dare- not post any more pictures! Influence me, influence me! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> --Dwight</strong><hr></blockquote> Sorry John D. and Hugh but...I have to agree with Dwight! I Love them Early Lugers! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> |
07-19-2002, 12:57 AM | #17 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 146
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
|
Pete,
I look forward to the photos. I will be in Austin in about a week, and I'll try to swing by for another look. It'd be great to find out it was a rare piece, but doesn't the "Germany" stamped on the frame pretty much disqualify it? If you'll give me a few pointers about what to look for, I'll go over the gun with a fine toothed comb and report back. Thanks. Don |
07-20-2002, 01:36 PM | #18 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The USA
Posts: 5,919
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
|
|
07-21-2002, 06:06 PM | #19 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 146
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
|
Beautiful specimen, Pete.
Yep, I'm afraid this gun is a sow's ear instead of a silk purse. The frame is not Swiss-style, there's no grip safety, and of course there's that inscription under the barrel, "GERMANY." However, I am curious about one thing, which is the design of the Swiss cross on the toggle, and your photos were too small to reveal any details. On the gun I saw, the cross was in a shield, but on the other photos posted here, the cross was in a sunburst. The only shield I've seen was in "Luger Tips" by Michale Reese, on a 1929. |
07-21-2002, 11:38 PM | #20 |
User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The USA
Posts: 5,919
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
|
Don,
The DWM Swiss lugers made in 1906 started out with cross-sunburst and then switched to cross-shield (I think around 1909...) The 1929 cross-shield is a little different that the earlier 1909 cross-shield emblem. I am away from home, but next week will post/scan some photos to show the difference...(unless another Forum member beats me to this...hint, hint...) <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|