Vickers of Questionable Virtue

Dwight Gruber · 11-18-2002, 12:07 AM

Picked up a "Vickers" today, one with sufficiently strange characteristics to be knowledgeably guessable or Wild-Ass-Guessable. The gun is mismatched and reworked, as I am led to expect for these guns, "Rust" above the safety as on any good Dutch Luger.

So far, so good. The toggle train is all Vickers and matching, you can see the Vickers proofs on all three pieces.

Horizontal version here EBT:
Top Horizontal

The barrel is a rebarrel, the barrel band is a millimeter or so longer than those found on a Navy or Artillery. However, there are no numbers as would be expected, just a stamp whith what looks like a wrinkled W in a circle.

The grips are coarsely chekered, but are poorly moulded of some odd black plastic material. The molds were apparently made from a matched pair of real wood grips, there appears to be wood grain molded into the plastic in the backs, as well as serial numbers from the mold source.

Larger version here EBT:
Larger pic of grips

Now here's the odd thing. I said the gun was a mismatch. The frame, though Dutch, is actually serial# 12517, which puts it squarely in the middle of the Royal Dutch Air Force contract, not Vickers. There is no evidence of a brass plate ever having been affixed to the frame. The trigger belongs to the frame, most of the other small parts are totally miscellaneous.

The receiver has a crown/N on the left side, but no corresponding Circle-KL on the right as a Dutch Air Force Luger would have.

So, it is a Vickers but not a Vickers, Dutch but not Dutch.

Does anyone have any knowledgable thoughts on any of this? Is this simply an assembly job, or is there a known provenance explanation for its state? I'm not going to be distressed by the possible answers here, its a great learning opportunity.

--Dwight

Lugerdoc · 11-18-2002, 08:15 AM

Dwight, Your Dutch luger does indeed seem to have been assembled from parts of previous Dutch lugers. This may date back to a war time field assembly (or may have been done last week) except that your plastic wood grained grips are what NC Ordnance currently call their Ironwood line. Tom H.

Ron Wood · 11-18-2002, 10:20 AM

You almost certainly have a re-barreled commercial barrel/receiver, the toggle train from a Vickers and the frame of a KOL. Weapons issued to officers either did not have a brass plate or the plate was left blank.

Edward Tinker · 11-18-2002, 10:55 AM

Still sounds like a nice gun. My Dutch Luger IS a Vickers, but has a DWM toggle, and my feeling is that it was re-arsenalled by the West Indies arsenal.
do you have The Dutch Luger? It is very good and has lots of information, but in you case, might raise more questions than answers, [img]wink.gif[/img]

Overall, I think that Dutch guns from the islands were changed and arsenalled more than some other Lugers.

Dwight Gruber · 11-19-2002, 12:26 AM

A good game, thanks to everybody who played. I'd like to think that the gun was re-arsenalled as Ed describes, but Occam's Razor forces me to cut much closer to Ron's parts gun conclusion.

Tom, the NC Ordinance grips all have the same 84 moulded in? And, are they -really- all that awful quality??

And I'm still curious about the mark under the barrel...

--Dwight

11-18-2002, 12:07 AM	#1
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,899 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,303 Times in 429 Posts	Vickers of Questionable Virtue Picked up a "Vickers" today, one with sufficiently strange characteristics to be knowledgeably guessable or Wild-Ass-Guessable. The gun is mismatched and reworked, as I am led to expect for these guns, "Rust" above the safety as on any good Dutch Luger. So far, so good. The toggle train is all Vickers and matching, you can see the Vickers proofs on all three pieces. Horizontal version here EBT: Top Horizontal The barrel is a rebarrel, the barrel band is a millimeter or so longer than those found on a Navy or Artillery. However, there are no numbers as would be expected, just a stamp whith what looks like a wrinkled W in a circle. The grips are coarsely chekered, but are poorly moulded of some odd black plastic material. The molds were apparently made from a matched pair of real wood grips, there appears to be wood grain molded into the plastic in the backs, as well as serial numbers from the mold source. Larger version here EBT: Larger pic of grips Now here's the odd thing. I said the gun was a mismatch. The frame, though Dutch, is actually serial# 12517, which puts it squarely in the middle of the Royal Dutch Air Force contract, not Vickers. There is no evidence of a brass plate ever having been affixed to the frame. The trigger belongs to the frame, most of the other small parts are totally miscellaneous. The receiver has a crown/N on the left side, but no corresponding Circle-KL on the right as a Dutch Air Force Luger would have. So, it is a Vickers but not a Vickers, Dutch but not Dutch. Does anyone have any knowledgable thoughts on any of this? Is this simply an assembly job, or is there a known provenance explanation for its state? I'm not going to be distressed by the possible answers here, its a great learning opportunity. --Dwight

11-18-2002, 08:15 AM	#2
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Dwight, Your Dutch luger does indeed seem to have been assembled from parts of previous Dutch lugers. This may date back to a war time field assembly (or may have been done last week) except that your plastic wood grained grips are what NC Ordnance currently call their Ironwood line. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-18-2002, 10:20 AM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,164 Times in 1,700 Posts	You almost certainly have a re-barreled commercial barrel/receiver, the toggle train from a Vickers and the frame of a KOL. Weapons issued to officers either did not have a brass plate or the plate was left blank. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-18-2002, 10:55 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,026 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	Still sounds like a nice gun. My Dutch Luger IS a Vickers, but has a DWM toggle, and my feeling is that it was re-arsenalled by the West Indies arsenal. do you have The Dutch Luger? It is very good and has lots of information, but in you case, might raise more questions than answers, [img]wink.gif[/img] Overall, I think that Dutch guns from the islands were changed and arsenalled more than some other Lugers. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-19-2002, 12:26 AM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,899 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,303 Times in 429 Posts	A good game, thanks to everybody who played. I'd like to think that the gun was re-arsenalled as Ed describes, but Occam's Razor forces me to cut much closer to Ron's parts gun conclusion. Tom, the NC Ordinance grips all have the same 84 moulded in? And, are they -really- all that awful quality?? And I'm still curious about the mark under the barrel... --Dwight