Reasonable Pay Price for A&F Swiss?

run4ever · 04-27-2006, 02:16 PM

Lets say 100% original and 90% condition or a little better...whats a reasonable price to pay? (7.65)

run4ever · 04-27-2006, 03:13 PM

Yes...No sense in keeping it a secret as Im sure you all know, but I didnt see any postings on this particular one. I saw postings on their 2 Fat Barrels.

Considering 100 were made and this one s 7.65 caliber, 15% buyers premium, what is reasonable to pay?

Im guessing at least one of you is planning on bidding/buying it.

Douglas711 · 04-27-2006, 04:28 PM

I am interested in hearing inout also. No I am not going to bid on this on. I bid on the J.C. Devine auction. I bid low mid and high. I didn't win one auction. When I say low mid high that is based on their estimated value.

Doug

Pete Ebbink · 04-27-2006, 06:12 PM

Why is the small pin "blued" that runs through the top of the toggle knobs ???

Pete Ebbink · 04-28-2006, 11:45 AM

Link to the gun Clay metnions :

Note the left side of the wooden magazine bottom has what looks like some scriptic "K" carved into the wood, as well.

http://www.rockislandauction.com/auc...hp?LotNum=1793

Clay,

The RIA auction has been known to be the "dumping ground" for boosted lugers some of the most-busy folks in this business. Since their reputations amongst collectors are well known now, these boosters are now moving merchandise through such 3rd. party means as a way to keep their sales lively.

This A&F may well be an original piece...but I suspect it is, at a minimum, refinished with a "look" I have seen on many, many guns coming out of our colder climates.

It is also possible this piece started life as a 1920's grip-safety commerical in the "i" series (i.e. with a blank chamber). and was never originally an A&F luger.

Many active agents for boosting shops will throw big money at gun shows trying to buy such a 1920's commecial. You start with a donor gun that runs $ 1500 or $ 2000, add a Swiss cross on the chamber and barrel stampings, refinish it, and then try to pass it off for $ 7500 or more as a A&F luger.

Photos from the RIA site :

Pete Ebbink · 04-28-2006, 07:14 PM

(Duplicate posting moved from the early luger section ) :

John S.,

I think your last posting probably was meant to be placed in the Swiss section where an A&F luger is/was being discussed...this discussion is about an AE luger.

Regarding the A&F lugers. They are not really "Swiss" lugers. A sporting goods store in the USA had 100 or so brought over to boost sales of commercial lugers by ordering them with a Swiss chamber marking and their company barrel inscription...taking advantage of the inherent and implied high level of quality with the "made in Switzerland" moniker.

But these 100 pistols were made by the Germans and not by the Swiss.

Author V. Bobba surmises this is the first historic occassion of luger "boosting" for comercial gain by this American firm, A&F.

These A&F lugers I would guess were never in the hands of Swiss Ordnance folks or Swiss shooters in CH...

The A&F luger on auction with RIA in the Swiss section discussion shows no oxidation or patina; thus my opinion it is a re-do.

I do not like the un-even beveled sides of the front toggle either...just above and below the DWM on the toggle. And it appears that some of the "DWM" scrolling along the top of the die stamping may have been lost as well. Especially with the "W".

Here is the wooden magazine marking :

Heinz · 04-28-2006, 08:01 PM

Pete, to add to your post, my understanding is that the barrels installed on the AF Lugers were made in Switzerland, and thus were the foundation for the "made in Switzerland" stamping. From Still Weimar Luger p 269. Still also notes that the serial numbers of these long frame long reciever assemblies should be in the "i" range, the pistols being made in 1921 or 1922. Lugers at Random by Charles Kenyon shows a reported AF Luger attributed to Ralph Shattuck with the comment they were made in Switzerland. Shattuck's sports a disc on the magazine :-)

I would be interested if there is existing documentation of these "AF Lugers" ever leaving the DWM factory or being imported by Abercrombie and Fitch.

Pete Ebbink · 04-28-2006, 08:14 PM

Heinz,

A period A&F catalogue might shed some light on these lugers as well.

run4ever · 04-29-2006, 08:27 AM

you guys know sooo much and i so little. Thnk you all. Reading on Luger Forum is like being in class and learning things you want to learn. I enjoy it.

Pete Ebbink · 04-29-2006, 02:56 PM

Anyone know the history of the elongated front sight barrel band ???

04-27-2006, 02:16 PM	#1
run4ever User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: shawnee mission, ks Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Reasonable Pay Price for A&F Swiss? Lets say 100% original and 90% condition or a little better...whats a reasonable price to pay? (7.65)

04-27-2006, 03:13 PM	#2
run4ever User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: shawnee mission, ks Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes, Im referring Rock Island's Yes...No sense in keeping it a secret as Im sure you all know, but I didnt see any postings on this particular one. I saw postings on their 2 Fat Barrels. Considering 100 were made and this one s 7.65 caliber, 15% buyers premium, what is reasonable to pay? Im guessing at least one of you is planning on bidding/buying it.

04-27-2006, 04:28 PM	#3
Douglas711 User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: CA Posts: 64 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	I am interested in hearing inout also. No I am not going to bid on this on. I bid on the J.C. Devine auction. I bid low mid and high. I didn't win one auction. When I say low mid high that is based on their estimated value. Doug

04-27-2006, 06:12 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Why is the small pin "blued" that runs through the top of the toggle knobs ???

04-28-2006, 11:45 AM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Link to the gun Clay metnions : Note the left side of the wooden magazine bottom has what looks like some scriptic "K" carved into the wood, as well. http://www.rockislandauction.com/auc...hp?LotNum=1793 Clay, The RIA auction has been known to be the "dumping ground" for boosted lugers some of the most-busy folks in this business. Since their reputations amongst collectors are well known now, these boosters are now moving merchandise through such 3rd. party means as a way to keep their sales lively. This A&F may well be an original piece...but I suspect it is, at a minimum, refinished with a "look" I have seen on many, many guns coming out of our colder climates. It is also possible this piece started life as a 1920's grip-safety commerical in the "i" series (i.e. with a blank chamber). and was never originally an A&F luger. Many active agents for boosting shops will throw big money at gun shows trying to buy such a 1920's commecial. You start with a donor gun that runs $ 1500 or $ 2000, add a Swiss cross on the chamber and barrel stampings, refinish it, and then try to pass it off for $ 7500 or more as a A&F luger. Photos from the RIA site :

04-28-2006, 07:14 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	(Duplicate posting moved from the early luger section ) : John S., I think your last posting probably was meant to be placed in the Swiss section where an A&F luger is/was being discussed...this discussion is about an AE luger. Regarding the A&F lugers. They are not really "Swiss" lugers. A sporting goods store in the USA had 100 or so brought over to boost sales of commercial lugers by ordering them with a Swiss chamber marking and their company barrel inscription...taking advantage of the inherent and implied high level of quality with the "made in Switzerland" moniker. But these 100 pistols were made by the Germans and not by the Swiss. Author V. Bobba surmises this is the first historic occassion of luger "boosting" for comercial gain by this American firm, A&F. These A&F lugers I would guess were never in the hands of Swiss Ordnance folks or Swiss shooters in CH... The A&F luger on auction with RIA in the Swiss section discussion shows no oxidation or patina; thus my opinion it is a re-do. I do not like the un-even beveled sides of the front toggle either...just above and below the DWM on the toggle. And it appears that some of the "DWM" scrolling along the top of the die stamping may have been lost as well. Especially with the "W". Here is the wooden magazine marking :

04-28-2006, 08:01 PM	#7
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Pete, to add to your post, my understanding is that the barrels installed on the AF Lugers were made in Switzerland, and thus were the foundation for the "made in Switzerland" stamping. From Still Weimar Luger p 269. Still also notes that the serial numbers of these long frame long reciever assemblies should be in the "i" range, the pistols being made in 1921 or 1922. Lugers at Random by Charles Kenyon shows a reported AF Luger attributed to Ralph Shattuck with the comment they were made in Switzerland. Shattuck's sports a disc on the magazine :-) I would be interested if there is existing documentation of these "AF Lugers" ever leaving the DWM factory or being imported by Abercrombie and Fitch.

04-28-2006, 08:14 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Heinz, A period A&F catalogue might shed some light on these lugers as well.

04-29-2006, 08:27 AM	#9
run4ever User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: shawnee mission, ks Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	you guys know sooo much and i so little. Thnk you all. Reading on Luger Forum is like being in class and learning things you want to learn. I enjoy it.

04-29-2006, 02:56 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Anyone know the history of the elongated front sight barrel band ???