Draft Navy Chart

John Sabato · 10-22-2002, 12:12 PM

This is a draft information chart from the pamphlet that Big Norm and Heinz are putting together.

I was asked to post it here for comments and recommendations by members.

Chart information updated 10-29-2002-JS

wterrell · 10-22-2002, 06:59 PM

Would frame model be pertinent?

Tony S. · 10-22-2002, 08:39 PM

Are these 1906 Navy Lugers, i.e.,1st and 2nd eddition?

Johnny Peppers · 10-22-2002, 09:25 PM

Wes,
I believe the information was only gathered on 1st Issue Altered Navys and the way the Gesichert was applied during the alteration. They would all be long frame.

Big Norm · 10-24-2002, 01:44 AM

These are all 1st issue altered 1906 navy Lugers. I would like to share credit for this chart, but I can't. Heinz did ALL the work. I just contibuted information on serial number 8638. Thank you Heinz for your contribution. Anybody that has more information for the chart should share it with Heinz.
Big Norm

Lugers down under · 10-24-2002, 12:30 PM

Heinz,
On the guns numbered 3004 and 790a, the removal is described as n.d. What does n.d. mean please.
Murray,

John Sabato · 10-24-2002, 02:04 PM

I am just guessing Murray, but I think it means "no description"

Heinz · 10-25-2002, 08:07 AM

Thanks for posting John. The chart is the product of Luger forum members input. The original idea was suggested by Jan Still. The valuable input is from a number of members.

The nd means "not determined" This was used when the owner could not determine whether the old marking had been milled off by milling the whole area, or the marking welded over and then milled (or ground down) to the original level.

This is a work in progress and most of the corections noted are appropriate.

John Sabato · 10-25-2002, 10:33 AM

heinz, as you get reported changes to the chart, if you will keep me updated on what you receive, I will update the posted chart here to keep it current. When you are satisfied with the input, you can then incorporate it into your booklet...

Heinz · 10-25-2002, 09:37 PM

Observations of a novice Luger collector who owns not one P06 (YET). One thought I have on the list so far is that the variations in both stamping of the new Gesichert and the removal of the old do not seem consistent with the hypothesis that all of the modifications were done in the Keil dockyard. (Walter in "The Luger Story") I wonder if some modifications were actually done on board larger vessels. Were the battleship and cruiser machine shops equipped with milling machines?

Big Norm · 10-26-2002, 03:58 PM

I have written to Heinz to correct an error that I have made in reporting my 1906 navy serial #8638 as a 1st issue altered. That gun is really a 1st issue unaltered. My 1st issue altered has serial number 587. The saftey is as reported with the 't' missing under the dimple. The altered gun has the dockyard marking of W.K. 1564. The old "Gesichert" was ground off.
I was surprised to find that my 1906 navy commercial is a 1st issue unaltered. I always assumed that it was a second issue.
Big Norm

John Sabato · 10-29-2002, 10:56 AM

The chart shown in the first posting to this message thread has been corrected to reflect changes to serial number 8368 information... Changes were from lc to uc and under comments to reflect that this gun is second issue... per email from Heinz...

10-22-2002, 12:12 PM	#1
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Draft Navy Chart This is a draft information chart from the pamphlet that Big Norm and Heinz are putting together. I was asked to post it here for comments and recommendations by members. Chart information updated 10-29-2002-JS __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-22-2002, 06:59 PM	#2
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Would frame model be pertinent? __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

10-24-2002, 12:30 PM	#6
Lugers down under User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Great Barrier Island, New Zealand Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Heinz, On the guns numbered 3004 and 790a, the removal is described as n.d. What does n.d. mean please. Murray, __________________ Lugers down under

10-24-2002, 02:04 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I am just guessing Murray, but I think it means "no description" __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-25-2002, 10:33 AM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	heinz, as you get reported changes to the chart, if you will keep me updated on what you receive, I will update the posted chart here to keep it current. When you are satisfied with the input, you can then incorporate it into your booklet... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-22-2002, 08:39 PM	#3
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Are these 1906 Navy Lugers, i.e.,1st and 2nd eddition?

10-22-2002, 09:25 PM	#4
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Wes, I believe the information was only gathered on 1st Issue Altered Navys and the way the Gesichert was applied during the alteration. They would all be long frame.

10-24-2002, 01:44 AM	#5
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	These are all 1st issue altered 1906 navy Lugers. I would like to share credit for this chart, but I can't. Heinz did ALL the work. I just contibuted information on serial number 8638. Thank you Heinz for your contribution. Anybody that has more information for the chart should share it with Heinz. Big Norm

10-25-2002, 08:07 AM	#8
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Thanks for posting John. The chart is the product of Luger forum members input. The original idea was suggested by Jan Still. The valuable input is from a number of members. The nd means "not determined" This was used when the owner could not determine whether the old marking had been milled off by milling the whole area, or the marking welded over and then milled (or ground down) to the original level. This is a work in progress and most of the corections noted are appropriate.

10-25-2002, 09:37 PM	#10
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Observations of a novice Luger collector who owns not one P06 (YET). One thought I have on the list so far is that the variations in both stamping of the new Gesichert and the removal of the old do not seem consistent with the hypothesis that all of the modifications were done in the Keil dockyard. (Walter in "The Luger Story") I wonder if some modifications were actually done on board larger vessels. Were the battleship and cruiser machine shops equipped with milling machines?

10-26-2002, 03:58 PM	#11
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I have written to Heinz to correct an error that I have made in reporting my 1906 navy serial #8638 as a 1st issue altered. That gun is really a 1st issue unaltered. My 1st issue altered has serial number 587. The saftey is as reported with the 't' missing under the dimple. The altered gun has the dockyard marking of W.K. 1564. The old "Gesichert" was ground off. I was surprised to find that my 1906 navy commercial is a 1st issue unaltered. I always assumed that it was a second issue. Big Norm

10-29-2002, 10:56 AM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	The chart shown in the first posting to this message thread has been corrected to reflect changes to serial number 8368 information... Changes were from lc to uc and under comments to reflect that this gun is second issue... per email from Heinz... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*