1914 Erfurt dilemma III

drbuster · 08-20-2002, 11:57 PM

As promised, I took my 1914 Erfurt #9912 "q" to the Reno show. It was examined by Ralph Shattuck, Bob Lewis, Pete Ebbink, and several others, including Forum members. Everyone agreed that the suffix was indeed a "q". The matching clip also has the "q". Ralph insisted that the 1914 Erfurt, recently sold to an individual in Texas, #5523"r", was also original and matching. It has TWO matching clips. The question of where were the other thousands of "c"-"p"1914 Erfurts of course arose. One conclusion was that there was a skip of suffixes (heat of battle production). There is no doubt that these two pieces exist and are not messed with. My hope is that others with 1914 Erfurts will post their suffixes so Jan Still can build an accurate data base. We must keep an open mind to things like this. It makes the hobby more exciting.

Garfield · 08-21-2002, 03:14 AM

What, prey tell, is "(heat of battle production)* and did the person that came up with this "conclusion" offer an explanation as to how this might have brought about a skip of 15 suffix groups?

Did you seek the advice of any other knowledgeable persons out side the "group" regarding this conundrum? I understand that Doug Smith was there.

Pardon me if I seem cynical, however, I fear that The data you seek is non-existant. The odds just don't favor it.

Good Hunting,

drbuster · 08-21-2002, 12:07 PM

Dear Garfield, Appreciate, as always, your reply. Yes Doug Smith was there BUT I don't recall any comment he made, pro or con. Pete Ebbink, can you help here? You were there when the "group" examined the piece. The bottom line here is that the "dilemma" persists.

Pete Ebbink · 08-21-2002, 12:20 PM

Good Morning Herb,

I do not believe Doug Smith was at the table when some of the Forum guys looked at your Erfurt.

I do not think it matters much, but this "beginner's" impression of your serial number suffix is that it definitely looked like that funny "q", to me.

I also recall you walked over to the FSG table a couple of times with various lugers you were having some of the experts look over a couple of your pistols.

Herb, another way to get some resolution here might be to ask Bill Garrison ( aka Garfield) and/or Jan Still if they would be willing to personally "inspect" your gun. It would only cost you the round trip shipping and insurance to send it up to Alaska. Another way would be to arrange to meet these folks at a mutually agreeable gun show.

Regards,

Pete <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

drbuster · 08-21-2002, 12:44 PM

Thanks Pete, please disregard my e-mail! You are always full of good ideas!

Johnny Peppers · 08-21-2002, 12:52 PM

Erfurt strictly followed the directives on marking the P08's and LP08's as well as the accessories they produced where DWM did not. With Erfurt's strict adherence to the directive it would be hard to believe that they could somehow have skipped from the letter suffix b to q and not have noticed the mistake. As there is now an r letter suffix 1914 Erfurt P08, it would only stand to reason that if we should choose to accept the skipped letter suffix theory that there should be 9999 q suffix 1914 Erfurts produced. Maybe the market will now bring forth a flood of late letter suffix 1914 Erfurt P08's.

Jan C Still · 08-21-2002, 04:18 PM

Mr. Fischer (Herb)
Thanks for your comments concerning your 1914 Erfurt in the q serial range block. I have an open mind when it comes to correcting mistakes and data in my books. I welcome any corrections, additions or criticism of any of my books. I make every effort to publish only correct data.

Its often very difficult to honestly criticize anotherÃ¢??s Luger. If you do so, you will get barbs from both the owner and the seller and all their friends (this is particularly true on this forum). ( Note: the seller is often not a reliable source of information.)

Please look up under GENERAL DISCUSSIONS and the thread Buffed, Reblued, Boosted -Need Help by Luke. There is a lot of good information in this thread on detecting refinished-faked Lugers. Note the Jan C. Still post (08-07-2002 @ 20.17). Carefully examine the proofs and serial numbers on the receiver and barrel of your 1914 Erfurt. Note the sharpness and if a halo exists around the proofs and serial numbers. I would like to know how your luger fits in with the other Erfurts?

As to the accuracy of my serial number data base published in Imperial Lugers(1991). I consider this an accurate-correct data base. Although it has not been updated, it has not been tainted with the resent surge of boosted and faked Lugers. Note that there thirty five 4- inch 1914 Erfurts reported in the ns, a, and b suffix serial range and none in the c to r suffix range.

These q and r range lugers that you report stand alone. Your request for additional Lugers in the c to r suffix range has gone unanswered. There is no current evidence of 150,000 additional lugers being produced in the c to f suffix range. There is no evidence to justify your conclusion that Ã¢??in the heat of battleÃ¢?Â the Erfurt Factory skipped the c-p suffixes.
(Note; two matching mags does not add to the credibility of a luger. A Ã¢??KÃ¢?Â date Luger exposed as a complete fraud in AUTO MAG several years ago also had two matching mags.)

If the two 1914 dated Lugers that you report are from the Erfurt factory during 1914-1918 they represent odd ball or out of sequence production. As I had stated in a previously post, there is a marking format for such odd ball production that consists of an added two digit assembly date. The two lugers under discussion donÃ¢??t have this added two digit date.

As I am currently working to revise Volume I would welcome an opportunity to examine and photograph your Luger. If you are willing to send it for my inspection I will give an honest evaluation and report it to the Forum. I have a dozen early Erfurts to compare it with.
Jan

Edward Tinker · 08-21-2002, 05:30 PM

Fascinating discussion. Although anything is possible, it is hard for me to believe that such a wide range of serial numbers is simply missing.

(No offense Herbert, it sounds like it is original, the facts just strike me in the forehead soundly, but then why the heck would someone fake a model such as this? Because it brings a premium hopefully?? I like to think that some Oktober fested employee popped odd markings on a gun as a prank or to see if it would slide through).

Heck, I don't know, very hard to say?

[quote] Its often very difficult to honestly criticize anotherÃ¢??s Luger. If you do so, you will get barbs from both the owner and the seller and all their friends (this is particularly true on this forum). <hr></blockquote> Hilarious, and I know you didn't really mean it that way Jan, but it is easy to be protective of others, [img]smile.gif[/img] When I asked for honest opinions from others, I held my breath. Got good ones on my Mauser 42 and on my artillery holster that I have had for 15 years (probably fake [img]frown.gif[/img] ) . Yet the honesty exhibited by forum members is encouraging to new folks like me.

Don't beat me to bad, but sugar coating won't help me in the long run.

Luke · 08-21-2002, 05:38 PM

Herbert,

It is my hope that you will accept Jan's generous offer to examine your Luger and report back on this Forum his findings. What an opportunity for all of us to learn something!

Regards,
Luke

Edward Tinker · 08-21-2002, 05:48 PM

Absolutly Luke, that would be very interesting to have others look at it (no offense again Herb and those that looked at it before).

On a side note [img]biggrin.gif[/img] anyone that has boosted or fake Lugers you want to get rid of for shooter prices, I would like to make or have made a cut down model (ala Art and Hughs) and a bull barrel model and we could ensure that ole fake is never mistaken again for a real one!

Luke · 08-21-2002, 06:05 PM

Edward,

Therein lies a delemma of a more general and more serious nature.

Now that I have learned a lot more than I knew when I started this hobby, I find to my chagrin and dismay that I am the sad owner of more than one "near mint" boosted Luger, bought from a trusted dealer.

It is my belief that knowingly selling a boosted Luger as an honest gun is unethical and should be, if it is not, a felony. Therefore, I cannot sell these as collectable Lugers.

On the other hand, I paid too much to sell them as shooters, as you suggest.

Guess I'll just have to keep them. Anyway, they sure do look good. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Live & learn.

Luke

Pete Ebbink · 08-21-2002, 06:08 PM

Hebert,

I think it would be a marvelous idea to send your luger up to Alaska !!! Please let us know what you and Jan Still decide...

To help me understand the "fake and forgery" business, I do have the following question/comment :

If this 1914 "q" luger is not "real", why would a forger go to all this trouble and make a really good, very dificult-to-spot fake and then blow it by using a suffix that draws so much attention to itself ?

This craftsman must be both very talented and not very smart if he/she won't even follow "established" serial number and suffix ranges that are published in such great books by Jan Still and others.

Of course, if this craftsman is reading the Forum, he/she may be ordering some books right now... [img]eek.gif[/img]

Doubs · 08-21-2002, 07:01 PM

Pete, I offer this as ONLY a distant possibility because it can never be proven. IF Jan were to determine that the "q" 1914 Erfurt is indeed genuine, then this would have to be considered.

A distracted or inattentive worker (sick, hung over, wife left him or son killed at the front, etc.) selects the wrong set of dies when changing worn or broken ones during the stamping process. The mistake is discovered after a single mistake is made and the correct dies are installed. We now have an orphan Luger that somehow goes unnoticed through the remainder of the steps and is shipped. It escapes the two digit correction Jan mentions.

In manufacturing, almost anything is possible. The Germans were/are methodical and meticulous but mistakes still happen on occassion.

Again, this is just one possibility. I sincerely hope you'll give Jan the opportunity to examine it and give his opinion.

drbuster · 08-22-2002, 01:41 AM

Thanks to all who replied to this dilemma. Jan, I would be happy to ship the piece up to you. Please let me know what your FFL status is. I might have to send it through Mike Krause (FFL to FFL), who is fully aware of this suffix discrepancy. He has assured me that HE did not make this Luger (just kidding)! Jan, if you want to contact me off line, my e-mail is: drbuster@msn.com. I would hope to hear from the individual who bought the "r" suffixed 1914 from Ralph, but so far, no return to my query.

Jan C Still · 08-22-2002, 03:12 AM

Mr. Fischer (Herb)
How did the folks that examined your 1914 Erfurt at the Reno Gun Show determine that it was origonal? Did they note the sharpness and if a halo exists around the proofs and serial numbers on the receiver and barrel? What was the result of their determination? I would be happy to discuss this over the phone with you if you are interested. My phone number is 907-364-3406. Or I can call you if you supply your phone number.

I have a Curio and Relics license that I am not sure is accepted in California. However, a friend that has a regular license (will return to Juneau on the 26th of August). I am looking forward to hearing from you.
Good Collecting
Jan

drbuster · 08-22-2002, 10:58 AM

Dear Jan, The folks at Reno simply eyeballed the piece. No one took it down to examine the inside surfaces, etc. No one there had the expertise and experience you have. The only way to attempt to resolve this dilemma is to have you personally examine it. I am willing to accept whatever conclusion you come to. I agree with Pete Ebbink's assessment earlier that I cannot see the percentage of faking a luger such as this, is just doesn't make sense.I will go over to Krausewerk today. I'm sure Mike will send the piece to your friend. I will telephone you later.I really appreciate your taking the time out of your busy schedule to help in this matter.

Heydrich · 08-22-2002, 05:02 PM

When I was still going to college about 12 years ago, I worked at an electronics plant in Hillsboro, Oregon that manufactured cell phones. This was just a summer job. Anyway, there was this yahoo there who worked in the finishing department who would intentionally place incorrect serial numbers on the completed phones to try and fool the QC person who did the final check. The yahoo who was doing this didn’t like the QC person and was trying to screw him up. Anyway, I saw this going on, and I’m absolutely positive that some of the bogus serial numbered ones made it through. So, I can just picture some cell phone collector 80 years from now looking at one of these bogus phones and going, “How the hell did this happen?!”

08-20-2002, 11:57 PM	#1
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	1914 Erfurt dilemma III As promised, I took my 1914 Erfurt #9912 "q" to the Reno show. It was examined by Ralph Shattuck, Bob Lewis, Pete Ebbink, and several others, including Forum members. Everyone agreed that the suffix was indeed a "q". The matching clip also has the "q". Ralph insisted that the 1914 Erfurt, recently sold to an individual in Texas, #5523"r", was also original and matching. It has TWO matching clips. The question of where were the other thousands of "c"-"p"1914 Erfurts of course arose. One conclusion was that there was a skip of suffixes (heat of battle production). There is no doubt that these two pieces exist and are not messed with. My hope is that others with 1914 Erfurts will post their suffixes so Jan Still can build an accurate data base. We must keep an open mind to things like this. It makes the hobby more exciting.

08-21-2002, 05:30 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,912 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Fascinating discussion. Although anything is possible, it is hard for me to believe that such a wide range of serial numbers is simply missing. (No offense Herbert, it sounds like it is original, the facts just strike me in the forehead soundly, but then why the heck would someone fake a model such as this? Because it brings a premium hopefully?? I like to think that some Oktober fested employee popped odd markings on a gun as a prank or to see if it would slide through). Heck, I don't know, very hard to say? [quote] Its often very difficult to honestly criticize anotherÃ¢??s Luger. If you do so, you will get barbs from both the owner and the seller and all their friends (this is particularly true on this forum). <hr></blockquote> Hilarious, and I know you didn't really mean it that way Jan, but it is easy to be protective of others, [img]smile.gif[/img] When I asked for honest opinions from others, I held my breath. Got good ones on my Mauser 42 and on my artillery holster that I have had for 15 years (probably fake [img]frown.gif[/img] ) . Yet the honesty exhibited by forum members is encouraging to new folks like me. Don't beat me to bad, but sugar coating won't help me in the long run. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-21-2002, 05:48 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,912 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Absolutly Luke, that would be very interesting to have others look at it (no offense again Herb and those that looked at it before). On a side note [img]biggrin.gif[/img] anyone that has boosted or fake Lugers you want to get rid of for shooter prices, I would like to make or have made a cut down model (ala Art and Hughs) and a bull barrel model and we could ensure that ole fake is never mistaken again for a real one! __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-21-2002, 06:05 PM	#11
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Edward, Therein lies a delemma of a more general and more serious nature. Now that I have learned a lot more than I knew when I started this hobby, I find to my chagrin and dismay that I am the sad owner of more than one "near mint" boosted Luger, bought from a trusted dealer. It is my belief that knowingly selling a boosted Luger as an honest gun is unethical and should be, if it is not, a felony. Therefore, I cannot sell these as collectable Lugers. On the other hand, I paid too much to sell them as shooters, as you suggest. Guess I'll just have to keep them. Anyway, they sure do look good. [img]smile.gif[/img] Live & learn. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-21-2002, 03:14 AM	#2
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What, prey tell, is "(heat of battle production)* and did the person that came up with this "conclusion" offer an explanation as to how this might have brought about a skip of 15 suffix groups? Did you seek the advice of any other knowledgeable persons out side the "group" regarding this conundrum? I understand that Doug Smith was there. Pardon me if I seem cynical, however, I fear that The data you seek is non-existant. The odds just don't favor it. Good Hunting,

08-21-2002, 12:07 PM	#3
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Dear Garfield, Appreciate, as always, your reply. Yes Doug Smith was there BUT I don't recall any comment he made, pro or con. Pete Ebbink, can you help here? You were there when the "group" examined the piece. The bottom line here is that the "dilemma" persists.

08-21-2002, 12:20 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Good Morning Herb, I do not believe Doug Smith was at the table when some of the Forum guys looked at your Erfurt. I do not think it matters much, but this "beginner's" impression of your serial number suffix is that it definitely looked like that funny "q", to me. I also recall you walked over to the FSG table a couple of times with various lugers you were having some of the experts look over a couple of your pistols. Herb, another way to get some resolution here might be to ask Bill Garrison ( aka Garfield) and/or Jan Still if they would be willing to personally "inspect" your gun. It would only cost you the round trip shipping and insurance to send it up to Alaska. Another way would be to arrange to meet these folks at a mutually agreeable gun show. Regards, Pete <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-21-2002, 12:44 PM	#5
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Thanks Pete, please disregard my e-mail! You are always full of good ideas!

08-21-2002, 12:52 PM	#6
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Erfurt strictly followed the directives on marking the P08's and LP08's as well as the accessories they produced where DWM did not. With Erfurt's strict adherence to the directive it would be hard to believe that they could somehow have skipped from the letter suffix b to q and not have noticed the mistake. As there is now an r letter suffix 1914 Erfurt P08, it would only stand to reason that if we should choose to accept the skipped letter suffix theory that there should be 9999 q suffix 1914 Erfurts produced. Maybe the market will now bring forth a flood of late letter suffix 1914 Erfurt P08's.

08-21-2002, 04:18 PM	#7
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Mr. Fischer (Herb) Thanks for your comments concerning your 1914 Erfurt in the q serial range block. I have an open mind when it comes to correcting mistakes and data in my books. I welcome any corrections, additions or criticism of any of my books. I make every effort to publish only correct data. Its often very difficult to honestly criticize anotherÃ¢??s Luger. If you do so, you will get barbs from both the owner and the seller and all their friends (this is particularly true on this forum). ( Note: the seller is often not a reliable source of information.) Please look up under GENERAL DISCUSSIONS and the thread Buffed, Reblued, Boosted -Need Help by Luke. There is a lot of good information in this thread on detecting refinished-faked Lugers. Note the Jan C. Still post (08-07-2002 @ 20.17). Carefully examine the proofs and serial numbers on the receiver and barrel of your 1914 Erfurt. Note the sharpness and if a halo exists around the proofs and serial numbers. I would like to know how your luger fits in with the other Erfurts? As to the accuracy of my serial number data base published in Imperial Lugers(1991). I consider this an accurate-correct data base. Although it has not been updated, it has not been tainted with the resent surge of boosted and faked Lugers. Note that there thirty five 4- inch 1914 Erfurts reported in the ns, a, and b suffix serial range and none in the c to r suffix range. These q and r range lugers that you report stand alone. Your request for additional Lugers in the c to r suffix range has gone unanswered. There is no current evidence of 150,000 additional lugers being produced in the c to f suffix range. There is no evidence to justify your conclusion that Ã¢??in the heat of battleÃ¢?Â the Erfurt Factory skipped the c-p suffixes. (Note; two matching mags does not add to the credibility of a luger. A Ã¢??KÃ¢?Â date Luger exposed as a complete fraud in AUTO MAG several years ago also had two matching mags.) If the two 1914 dated Lugers that you report are from the Erfurt factory during 1914-1918 they represent odd ball or out of sequence production. As I had stated in a previously post, there is a marking format for such odd ball production that consists of an added two digit assembly date. The two lugers under discussion donÃ¢??t have this added two digit date. As I am currently working to revise Volume I would welcome an opportunity to examine and photograph your Luger. If you are willing to send it for my inspection I will give an honest evaluation and report it to the Forum. I have a dozen early Erfurts to compare it with. Jan

08-21-2002, 05:38 PM	#9
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Herbert, It is my hope that you will accept Jan's generous offer to examine your Luger and report back on this Forum his findings. What an opportunity for all of us to learn something! Regards, Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-21-2002, 06:08 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hebert, I think it would be a marvelous idea to send your luger up to Alaska !!! Please let us know what you and Jan Still decide... To help me understand the "fake and forgery" business, I do have the following question/comment : If this 1914 "q" luger is not "real", why would a forger go to all this trouble and make a really good, very dificult-to-spot fake and then blow it by using a suffix that draws so much attention to itself ? This craftsman must be both very talented and not very smart if he/she won't even follow "established" serial number and suffix ranges that are published in such great books by Jan Still and others. Of course, if this craftsman is reading the Forum, he/she may be ordering some books right now... [img]eek.gif[/img]

08-21-2002, 07:01 PM	#13
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 771 Thanked 1,614 Times in 525 Posts	Pete, I offer this as ONLY a distant possibility because it can never be proven. IF Jan were to determine that the "q" 1914 Erfurt is indeed genuine, then this would have to be considered. A distracted or inattentive worker (sick, hung over, wife left him or son killed at the front, etc.) selects the wrong set of dies when changing worn or broken ones during the stamping process. The mistake is discovered after a single mistake is made and the correct dies are installed. We now have an orphan Luger that somehow goes unnoticed through the remainder of the steps and is shipped. It escapes the two digit correction Jan mentions. In manufacturing, almost anything is possible. The Germans were/are methodical and meticulous but mistakes still happen on occassion. Again, this is just one possibility. I sincerely hope you'll give Jan the opportunity to examine it and give his opinion.

08-22-2002, 01:41 AM	#14
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Thanks to all who replied to this dilemma. Jan, I would be happy to ship the piece up to you. Please let me know what your FFL status is. I might have to send it through Mike Krause (FFL to FFL), who is fully aware of this suffix discrepancy. He has assured me that HE did not make this Luger (just kidding)! Jan, if you want to contact me off line, my e-mail is: drbuster@msn.com. I would hope to hear from the individual who bought the "r" suffixed 1914 from Ralph, but so far, no return to my query.

08-22-2002, 03:12 AM	#15
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Mr. Fischer (Herb) How did the folks that examined your 1914 Erfurt at the Reno Gun Show determine that it was origonal? Did they note the sharpness and if a halo exists around the proofs and serial numbers on the receiver and barrel? What was the result of their determination? I would be happy to discuss this over the phone with you if you are interested. My phone number is 907-364-3406. Or I can call you if you supply your phone number. I have a Curio and Relics license that I am not sure is accepted in California. However, a friend that has a regular license (will return to Juneau on the 26th of August). I am looking forward to hearing from you. Good Collecting Jan

08-22-2002, 10:58 AM	#16
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Dear Jan, The folks at Reno simply eyeballed the piece. No one took it down to examine the inside surfaces, etc. No one there had the expertise and experience you have. The only way to attempt to resolve this dilemma is to have you personally examine it. I am willing to accept whatever conclusion you come to. I agree with Pete Ebbink's assessment earlier that I cannot see the percentage of faking a luger such as this, is just doesn't make sense.I will go over to Krausewerk today. I'm sure Mike will send the piece to your friend. I will telephone you later.I really appreciate your taking the time out of your busy schedule to help in this matter.

08-22-2002, 05:02 PM	#17
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	When I was still going to college about 12 years ago, I worked at an electronics plant in Hillsboro, Oregon that manufactured cell phones. This was just a summer job. Anyway, there was this yahoo there who worked in the finishing department who would intentionally place incorrect serial numbers on the completed phones to try and fool the QC person who did the final check. The yahoo who was doing this didn’t like the QC person and was trying to screw him up. Anyway, I saw this going on, and I’m absolutely positive that some of the bogus serial numbered ones made it through. So, I can just picture some cell phone collector 80 years from now looking at one of these bogus phones and going, “How the hell did this happen?!”