Buy Books, Read and Study - Page 2

Jan C Still · 08-12-2002, 03:01 PM

Unspellable
To my knowledge there is no evidence that the Schutzpolizei Dusseldorf had an unusally large number of Lugers issued to it. Perhaps you have additional evidence.

The Allied Control Commission pulled out of Germany in 1927/1928. By the late Weimar/Early Nazi time frame it is doubtful that the Germans were trying to hide police pistol issue by cooking the books or faking Luger grip strap markings (Army issue was hidden by the use of date codes). In 1935 Hitler renounced the armament restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles.
Jan

Ron Wood · 08-12-2002, 03:54 PM

Here is a wild guess on the high numbers encountered for Schutzpolizei Dusseldorf Lugers. I seem to recall that some police units property marked pistols, rifles and maybe some other equipment with property marks without regard to type, so if one encouters a Luger with a number like S.D.178, perhaps S.D.177 was a rifle?

unspellable · 08-12-2002, 06:40 PM

I have no opinions or evidence for the immediate question, but did start wondering just what did the Germas do to hide pistols from the control commission or any one else.

I did see one oddity. I once saw a Luger in the white with no markings of any kind whatsoever. It was presumed to be a "lunchbox special". That sort of thing does go on at factories. Remeber Johny Cash's song about the Cadillac.

Doubs · 08-12-2002, 07:41 PM

[quote]Originally posted by unspellable:
<strong> I did see one oddity. I once saw a Luger in the white with no markings of any kind whatsoever. It was presumed to be a "lunchbox special". That sort of thing does go on at factories. Remeber Johny Cash's song about the Cadillac.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I have read that early occupation force GI's had Lugers assembled from factory parts or maybe even had skilled German workers put them together. I don't recall where I read it so it may be rumor.

"Lunch box" guns do exist and I'm aware of at least one such Union Switch & Signal (USS) 1911A1 in the hands of a retired USS executive who retrieved it from the police after an incident. No serial number or markings other than the slide markings, IIRC. The gentleman also has what may be the only existing records of USS war-time 1911A1 production, although they are far from complete. The records were dug from the trash after being tossed by the company.

Herb · 08-12-2002, 07:51 PM

Having no hard evidence to refute the SD question as my experience with those initials were during my days of collecting armbands and other forms of Nazi political militaria. SD was always associated with the Security Service. If, in fact, the Lugers found with the S.D. grip stamping representing the Dussledorf police then I assume that all of the examples are also clearly marked in the police fashion, or is this an exception?

Jan C Still · 08-12-2002, 08:22 PM

Herb and Ron Wood

Herb you stated: Ã¢??Hell of a lot of cops in Dusseldorf.....so many Lugers stamped with that markÃ¢?Â
Ron Wood you stated: Ã¢??...high numbers encountered for Schutzpolizei Dusseldorf Lugers.Ã¢?Â
You two must have some information that you havenÃ¢??t stated that indicates that the Dusseldorf administrative District had a larger number of Lugers relative to other similar districts.

Some of the higher/highest Schutzpolizei Luger weapons numbers that I have observed are:

S.D. VI. 1003: Schutzpolizei in the Administrative District of Dusseldorf, precinct VI, pistol no. 1003

S.W. I. 1104: Schutzpolizei in the Administrative District of Wiesbaden, precinct I, pistol no. 1104

S.H. 1208: Schutzpolizei in the Administrative District of Hannover, pistol no. 1208

S.B. 10152: Schutzpolizei in the Administrative District of Berlin, pistol no. 10152

S.B. 11732: Schutzpolizei in the Administrative District of Berlin, pistol no. 11732

These higher pistol numbers, 1003 to 1208 for Dusseldorf, Wiesbaden, and Hannover and 10152 to 11732 for Berlin donÃ¢??t seem to give any indication of a higher number of pistols designated for Dusseldorf. Note: this listing was derived from publications by Still (1982, 1993) and Gortz, Bryans (1997). This table is based on a small amount of data. Data indicating a different conclusion would be most appreciated.

Many years ago I discussed the Prussian State Police unit designations found by Kornmayer in the German archives with Mr. Shattuck. He was still using the Sicherheitsdienst designation on his Luger list. He insisted that CostanzoÃ¢??s (p 220) Sicherheitsdienst designation was correct. As I have not received his list for many years, I donÃ¢??t know if this usage persists. Could any of the Forum members update me on this.
Jan

Brandon · 08-12-2002, 09:10 PM

Would Jan Still please check his private messages?

Thanks, Brandon...

Herb · 08-12-2002, 09:25 PM

Jan, since I can't dissuade you from your position I guess I will have to accept it, especially in light of the regulations published in April 1922 in the landstadt of Prussia reserving the "S" for police units. I have no idea if Ralph is still holding to the Constanzo explanation or not as I do not buy his brochres, however he and Sam are long time friends. I will be visiting with him this weekend at the Reno gun show, if I remember to do so I'll ask him. I can certainly understand why someone would hold that the meaning Sicherheits Dienst SD as it is commonly meant just that on great numbers of other Nazi military items. One thing that has me wondering is how the NSDAP, national socialistic democratic workers party, ever got shortened to Nazi. Does Nazi mean something entirely different? I have read many, many books on Nazi Germany but have never come across an explanation for this acronym. Any info? Excuse the syntax, my inner ear viral infection is acting up again and things are not working just right at this time, got the dizzies.

Pete Ebbink · 08-12-2002, 09:44 PM

Hello Garfield,

Here is the post from Jan C. Still on 6-22-02 in the thread titled "The Rarest Erfurt" under the Forum section called "All P-08 Military Lugers" :

" Doug

The rarest Erfurt luger is dated 1910. It was first described in AUTO MAG and is somewhat controversal. Only two are known.

Jan "

Maybe I did make an assumption that a 1910 Erfurt has been authenticated. It appears the statement only states that a 1910 Erfurt is the "rarest" Erfurt.

I assumed if this was a fake/forgery, it would certainly not be mentioned by one of the luger experts as "the rarest...".

I apologize, ahead of time, for a logic-leap I may have made in my assumption...

Garfield · 08-13-2002, 12:44 AM

Pete:

There you go assuming things. Not wise if you are a collector. Usually leads to heartbreak and, more importantly, a depleted bank account.

In any event, as Brandon has pointed out, experts are not right 100% of the time.

Ron Wood · 08-13-2002, 03:55 AM

Jan
I have absolutely no information beyond the wild guess I posed. I was just following the thread and stating something I heard. Sorry if I implied otherwise. My real point was that assignment of property numbers may have been shared among other items of police property and not exclusively limited to the numbering of Lugers. Now that you have posted your excellent accounting of various police units, it does strike me as amazing that the police district in Berlin might have had almost 12,000 Lugers! [img]smile.gif[/img]

John Sabato · 08-13-2002, 11:58 AM

Doubs,

[quote]I have read that early occupation force GI's had Lugers assembled from factory parts or maybe even had skilled German workers put them together. I don't recall where I read it so it may be rumor. <hr></blockquote>

Please check the Krieghoff forum (Topic: Krieghoff/Mauser KU Quality) for a copy of a letter from H. Kreighoff that will add to your rumors a ring of truth regarding the early occupation forces and building of Lugers from parts...

Doubs · 08-13-2002, 01:13 PM

[quote]Originally posted by John Sabato:
<strong>Doubs, Please check the Krieghoff forum (Topic: Krieghoff/Mauser KU Quality) for a copy of a letter from H. Kreighoff that will add to your rumors a ring of truth regarding the early occupation forces and building of Lugers from parts...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thanks for the reference, John. I read that letter when it was first posted and I also have the book "Kreighoff Parabellum" which I'm sure mentions assembly of Lugers from factory parts. I'm positive I've also read it elsewhere but can't recall exactly where. Sometimes, when I'm posting purely from memory, I can't immediately recall an exact source so I'd rather state it as an opinion based on what I *remember* reading or seeing. I like to have my ducks in a row before I state something as hard and fast fact.

policeluger · 08-13-2002, 05:20 PM

I believe that Jan Still's note of 8/12/02 is correct. If S.D. is not for the town of Dusseldorf, then what was the Police unit marking for Dusseldorf ?. I have two unit marked SD's in my collection, 1921 dated S.D.VI.953, and 1915/1920 DATED S.D.I.275.R with the "R" crossed out. Just my 2 cents and 2 SD's worth.

unspellable · 08-13-2002, 06:36 PM

The "lunch box" special I saw appeared to be a DWM made before 1934. If I recall correctly, that is the cutoff date beyond which US Fderal law requires serial numbers on handguns. If so, there would be complications involved in the possesion of a later pistol with no numbers such as the M1911 mentioned in an earlier post or a Luger assembled post WWII.

Jan C Still · 08-13-2002, 10:09 PM

According to a 5 April 1922 Directive of the Prussian Minister of the Interior
".....They will receive the symbol for the Schutzpolizei and each kind of weapon will carry a consecutive weapon number."

Of interest is a Luger shown on page v and 153 of Weimar Lugers. Its a 1929 DWM marked L.D.111 (Landjagerei Dusseldorf weapon no. 111) on its front strap.This luger came complete with a Prussian State police bayonet marked L.D.111 and a police holster, tool and two mags marked L.D.111. Apparentally some police units marked associated Luger accessories with the same unit number found on the Luger. Period police photographs show the luger, bayonet and all accessories stored together.
Jan

Jan C Still · 08-18-2002, 08:18 PM

This was posted in the Military P08 section but it is important enough to repost here.
Jan

Bill Munis
You might be interested in a post by Tom A. under General Discussion titled Buy Books, Read And Study
"It has become apparent to me that there are several members and contributors (and you know who you are so don't bother wasting time with feeble excuses) who cause forum discord by asking questions and then refuting answers they receive from some internationally known experts who are or used to be in this group. A quick run through of some of the questions indicates that in several instances, the questioner had not read or was not aware of authoritative published material that covered the topic in detail. This is a basic failure to do one's homework."

Then follow the thread down a few posts to see the exact problem that Tom A. was discussing repeated.

Its somewhat similar to the problem that you expressed:

"It must be very confusing for the new collectors to post here and get numerous somewhat different answers as they do not know what to accept and what not to."

One thing is clear, if the poster doesnt know the answer let the reader know that you are speculating. Give the source or explain the basis of your imformation.
Jan

08-12-2002, 03:54 PM	#22
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,098 Times in 1,676 Posts	Here is a wild guess on the high numbers encountered for Schutzpolizei Dusseldorf Lugers. I seem to recall that some police units property marked pistols, rifles and maybe some other equipment with property marks without regard to type, so if one encouters a Luger with a number like S.D.178, perhaps S.D.177 was a rifle? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-12-2002, 07:51 PM	#25
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Having no hard evidence to refute the SD question as my experience with those initials were during my days of collecting armbands and other forms of Nazi political militaria. SD was always associated with the Security Service. If, in fact, the Lugers found with the S.D. grip stamping representing the Dussledorf police then I assume that all of the examples are also clearly marked in the police fashion, or is this an exception? __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-12-2002, 09:25 PM	#28
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jan, since I can't dissuade you from your position I guess I will have to accept it, especially in light of the regulations published in April 1922 in the landstadt of Prussia reserving the "S" for police units. I have no idea if Ralph is still holding to the Constanzo explanation or not as I do not buy his brochres, however he and Sam are long time friends. I will be visiting with him this weekend at the Reno gun show, if I remember to do so I'll ask him. I can certainly understand why someone would hold that the meaning Sicherheits Dienst SD as it is commonly meant just that on great numbers of other Nazi military items. One thing that has me wondering is how the NSDAP, national socialistic democratic workers party, ever got shortened to Nazi. Does Nazi mean something entirely different? I have read many, many books on Nazi Germany but have never come across an explanation for this acronym. Any info? Excuse the syntax, my inner ear viral infection is acting up again and things are not working just right at this time, got the dizzies. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-13-2002, 03:55 AM	#31
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,098 Times in 1,676 Posts	Jan I have absolutely no information beyond the wild guess I posed. I was just following the thread and stating something I heard. Sorry if I implied otherwise. My real point was that assignment of property numbers may have been shared among other items of police property and not exclusively limited to the numbering of Lugers. Now that you have posted your excellent accounting of various police units, it does strike me as amazing that the police district in Berlin might have had almost 12,000 Lugers! [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-13-2002, 11:58 AM	#32
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Doubs, [quote]I have read that early occupation force GI's had Lugers assembled from factory parts or maybe even had skilled German workers put them together. I don't recall where I read it so it may be rumor. <hr></blockquote> Please check the Krieghoff forum (Topic: Krieghoff/Mauser KU Quality) for a copy of a letter from H. Kreighoff that will add to your rumors a ring of truth regarding the early occupation forces and building of Lugers from parts... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-12-2002, 03:01 PM	#21
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Unspellable To my knowledge there is no evidence that the Schutzpolizei Dusseldorf had an unusally large number of Lugers issued to it. Perhaps you have additional evidence. The Allied Control Commission pulled out of Germany in 1927/1928. By the late Weimar/Early Nazi time frame it is doubtful that the Germans were trying to hide police pistol issue by cooking the books or faking Luger grip strap markings (Army issue was hidden by the use of date codes). In 1935 Hitler renounced the armament restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles. Jan

08-12-2002, 06:40 PM	#23
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	I have no opinions or evidence for the immediate question, but did start wondering just what did the Germas do to hide pistols from the control commission or any one else. I did see one oddity. I once saw a Luger in the white with no markings of any kind whatsoever. It was presumed to be a "lunchbox special". That sort of thing does go on at factories. Remeber Johny Cash's song about the Cadillac.

08-12-2002, 07:41 PM	#24
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 770 Thanked 1,614 Times in 525 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by unspellable: <strong> I did see one oddity. I once saw a Luger in the white with no markings of any kind whatsoever. It was presumed to be a "lunchbox special". That sort of thing does go on at factories. Remeber Johny Cash's song about the Cadillac.</strong><hr></blockquote> I have read that early occupation force GI's had Lugers assembled from factory parts or maybe even had skilled German workers put them together. I don't recall where I read it so it may be rumor. "Lunch box" guns do exist and I'm aware of at least one such Union Switch & Signal (USS) 1911A1 in the hands of a retired USS executive who retrieved it from the police after an incident. No serial number or markings other than the slide markings, IIRC. The gentleman also has what may be the only existing records of USS war-time 1911A1 production, although they are far from complete. The records were dug from the trash after being tossed by the company.

08-12-2002, 08:22 PM	#26
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Herb and Ron Wood Herb you stated: Ã¢??Hell of a lot of cops in Dusseldorf.....so many Lugers stamped with that markÃ¢?Â Ron Wood you stated: Ã¢??...high numbers encountered for Schutzpolizei Dusseldorf Lugers.Ã¢?Â You two must have some information that you havenÃ¢??t stated that indicates that the Dusseldorf administrative District had a larger number of Lugers relative to other similar districts. Some of the higher/highest Schutzpolizei Luger weapons numbers that I have observed are: S.D. VI. 1003: Schutzpolizei in the Administrative District of Dusseldorf, precinct VI, pistol no. 1003 S.W. I. 1104: Schutzpolizei in the Administrative District of Wiesbaden, precinct I, pistol no. 1104 S.H. 1208: Schutzpolizei in the Administrative District of Hannover, pistol no. 1208 S.B. 10152: Schutzpolizei in the Administrative District of Berlin, pistol no. 10152 S.B. 11732: Schutzpolizei in the Administrative District of Berlin, pistol no. 11732 These higher pistol numbers, 1003 to 1208 for Dusseldorf, Wiesbaden, and Hannover and 10152 to 11732 for Berlin donÃ¢??t seem to give any indication of a higher number of pistols designated for Dusseldorf. Note: this listing was derived from publications by Still (1982, 1993) and Gortz, Bryans (1997). This table is based on a small amount of data. Data indicating a different conclusion would be most appreciated. Many years ago I discussed the Prussian State Police unit designations found by Kornmayer in the German archives with Mr. Shattuck. He was still using the Sicherheitsdienst designation on his Luger list. He insisted that CostanzoÃ¢??s (p 220) Sicherheitsdienst designation was correct. As I have not received his list for many years, I donÃ¢??t know if this usage persists. Could any of the Forum members update me on this. Jan

08-12-2002, 09:10 PM	#27
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Would Jan Still please check his private messages? Thanks, Brandon...

08-12-2002, 09:44 PM	#29
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Garfield, Here is the post from Jan C. Still on 6-22-02 in the thread titled "The Rarest Erfurt" under the Forum section called "All P-08 Military Lugers" : " Doug The rarest Erfurt luger is dated 1910. It was first described in AUTO MAG and is somewhat controversal. Only two are known. Jan " Maybe I did make an assumption that a 1910 Erfurt has been authenticated. It appears the statement only states that a 1910 Erfurt is the "rarest" Erfurt. I assumed if this was a fake/forgery, it would certainly not be mentioned by one of the luger experts as "the rarest...". I apologize, ahead of time, for a logic-leap I may have made in my assumption...

08-13-2002, 12:44 AM	#30
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete: There you go assuming things. Not wise if you are a collector. Usually leads to heartbreak and, more importantly, a depleted bank account. In any event, as Brandon has pointed out, experts are not right 100% of the time.

08-13-2002, 01:13 PM	#33
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 770 Thanked 1,614 Times in 525 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by John Sabato: <strong>Doubs, Please check the Krieghoff forum (Topic: Krieghoff/Mauser KU Quality) for a copy of a letter from H. Kreighoff that will add to your rumors a ring of truth regarding the early occupation forces and building of Lugers from parts...</strong><hr></blockquote> Thanks for the reference, John. I read that letter when it was first posted and I also have the book "Kreighoff Parabellum" which I'm sure mentions assembly of Lugers from factory parts. I'm positive I've also read it elsewhere but can't recall exactly where. Sometimes, when I'm posting purely from memory, I can't immediately recall an exact source so I'd rather state it as an opinion based on what I remember reading or seeing. I like to have my ducks in a row before I state something as hard and fast fact.

08-13-2002, 05:20 PM	#34
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I believe that Jan Still's note of 8/12/02 is correct. If S.D. is not for the town of Dusseldorf, then what was the Police unit marking for Dusseldorf ?. I have two unit marked SD's in my collection, 1921 dated S.D.VI.953, and 1915/1920 DATED S.D.I.275.R with the "R" crossed out. Just my 2 cents and 2 SD's worth.

08-13-2002, 06:36 PM	#35
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	The "lunch box" special I saw appeared to be a DWM made before 1934. If I recall correctly, that is the cutoff date beyond which US Fderal law requires serial numbers on handguns. If so, there would be complications involved in the possesion of a later pistol with no numbers such as the M1911 mentioned in an earlier post or a Luger assembled post WWII.

08-13-2002, 10:09 PM	#36
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	According to a 5 April 1922 Directive of the Prussian Minister of the Interior ".....They will receive the symbol for the Schutzpolizei and each kind of weapon will carry a consecutive weapon number." Of interest is a Luger shown on page v and 153 of Weimar Lugers. Its a 1929 DWM marked L.D.111 (Landjagerei Dusseldorf weapon no. 111) on its front strap.This luger came complete with a Prussian State police bayonet marked L.D.111 and a police holster, tool and two mags marked L.D.111. Apparentally some police units marked associated Luger accessories with the same unit number found on the Luger. Period police photographs show the luger, bayonet and all accessories stored together. Jan

08-18-2002, 08:18 PM	#37
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	This was posted in the Military P08 section but it is important enough to repost here. Jan Bill Munis You might be interested in a post by Tom A. under General Discussion titled Buy Books, Read And Study "It has become apparent to me that there are several members and contributors (and you know who you are so don't bother wasting time with feeble excuses) who cause forum discord by asking questions and then refuting answers they receive from some internationally known experts who are or used to be in this group. A quick run through of some of the questions indicates that in several instances, the questioner had not read or was not aware of authoritative published material that covered the topic in detail. This is a basic failure to do one's homework." Then follow the thread down a few posts to see the exact problem that Tom A. was discussing repeated. Its somewhat similar to the problem that you expressed: "It must be very confusing for the new collectors to post here and get numerous somewhat different answers as they do not know what to accept and what not to." One thing is clear, if the poster doesnt know the answer let the reader know that you are speculating. Give the source or explain the basis of your imformation. Jan