1920 Commercial model markings

Jukka Huvinen · 03-10-2003, 01:32 PM

I understand 1920 Commercial Lugers were made from surplus and/or from new parts that were available.

Some had original markings and proofmarks removed?

Did they serial-number surplus parts again or is it possible that the reworks have mismatching numbered parts?

I guess I should buy Still's Weimar Lugers book, if I only find one.

- Jukka

Steve Richards · 03-11-2003, 01:34 AM

My 1920 commercial artillery is a complete mismatch but all the parts show wear that is consistant with them being together for a long time. I know that this is not much help but it is all that I know about this topic.

unspellable · 03-11-2003, 08:16 AM

I have never seen a real definition of what constitutes a 1920 commercial. This leaves me free to make up my own. At the end of WWI DWM found themselves with a large stock of components on hand. They assembled these and sold them on the commercial market. Hence they were "new" unused guns, built of military spec parts but never having been owned by the military or carrying any military markings. They would have a military type serial number, commercial proofs, no military inspection marks. This is what I would regard as a 1920 commercial. I might make an exception to the mitary markings if it can be established they never left the DWM works with the markings one them.

There was also a cottage industry engaged in refurbishing ex-military pistols. These pistols will have military proof and inspection marks either present or ground off. They are more likley to be mismatched. I regard them as military surplus.

It can be difficult to establish in the case of any single pistol, but where it can be established, I maintain that if the military once owned it then it's military surplus, even if refurbished and commercially marked, but if it was built fro DWM's stock of mil spec parts and went diretly from them to market, then it's a 1920 commercial.

One clue is the chamber date. The DWM 1920 commercials will have it very cleanly ground off so that it's difficult to tell that it was ground off. The military surplus stuff will have the date more crudely ground off or in some cases still present.

In 1923 DWM resumed manufacture of commercial Parabellums on a small scale, this is the 1923 commercial model, not overly common today.

This was an unsettled period in the history of the Parabellum, any rule you can come up with will have its exceptions.

Lugerdoc · 03-11-2003, 08:17 AM

Jukka, The true Weimar commericals with commerical C/N proofing would have matching serial numbers in the commerical style, when they left the factory and any previous military date, proofing and serialization would have been removed. Weimar reworks by Simson et al, may still have military serialization and characteristic, but generally have additional proofing. Tom

Steve Richards · 03-11-2003, 08:39 PM

I call mine a 1920 commercial because the frame number falls in the range given in both Lugers at Random and in the e-book that covers the models.

When I say it is a mismatch, I mean just that. It looks like someone randomly went to parts bins and picked out parts to create a gun. It is not a simple case of a few parts being switched as they broke. It looks like nothing ever matched except as a couple of parts which would be expected from a random drawing from parts bins.

But it is mine, the price was right and it shoots great!

Jukka Huvinen · 03-12-2003, 06:45 AM

Thank you all for excellent information!

I consider buying one, but I haven't seen it yet.
I'll report later what it turns out.

- Jukka

03-10-2003, 01:32 PM	#1
Jukka Huvinen New User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1920 Commercial model markings I understand 1920 Commercial Lugers were made from surplus and/or from new parts that were available. Some had original markings and proofmarks removed? Did they serial-number surplus parts again or is it possible that the reworks have mismatching numbered parts? I guess I should buy Still's Weimar Lugers book, if I only find one. - Jukka

03-11-2003, 08:17 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Jukka, The true Weimar commericals with commerical C/N proofing would have matching serial numbers in the commerical style, when they left the factory and any previous military date, proofing and serialization would have been removed. Weimar reworks by Simson et al, may still have military serialization and characteristic, but generally have additional proofing. Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-11-2003, 01:34 AM	#2
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My 1920 commercial artillery is a complete mismatch but all the parts show wear that is consistant with them being together for a long time. I know that this is not much help but it is all that I know about this topic.

03-11-2003, 08:16 AM	#3
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	I have never seen a real definition of what constitutes a 1920 commercial. This leaves me free to make up my own. At the end of WWI DWM found themselves with a large stock of components on hand. They assembled these and sold them on the commercial market. Hence they were "new" unused guns, built of military spec parts but never having been owned by the military or carrying any military markings. They would have a military type serial number, commercial proofs, no military inspection marks. This is what I would regard as a 1920 commercial. I might make an exception to the mitary markings if it can be established they never left the DWM works with the markings one them. There was also a cottage industry engaged in refurbishing ex-military pistols. These pistols will have military proof and inspection marks either present or ground off. They are more likley to be mismatched. I regard them as military surplus. It can be difficult to establish in the case of any single pistol, but where it can be established, I maintain that if the military once owned it then it's military surplus, even if refurbished and commercially marked, but if it was built fro DWM's stock of mil spec parts and went diretly from them to market, then it's a 1920 commercial. One clue is the chamber date. The DWM 1920 commercials will have it very cleanly ground off so that it's difficult to tell that it was ground off. The military surplus stuff will have the date more crudely ground off or in some cases still present. In 1923 DWM resumed manufacture of commercial Parabellums on a small scale, this is the 1923 commercial model, not overly common today. This was an unsettled period in the history of the Parabellum, any rule you can come up with will have its exceptions.

03-11-2003, 08:39 PM	#5
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I call mine a 1920 commercial because the frame number falls in the range given in both Lugers at Random and in the e-book that covers the models. When I say it is a mismatch, I mean just that. It looks like someone randomly went to parts bins and picked out parts to create a gun. It is not a simple case of a few parts being switched as they broke. It looks like nothing ever matched except as a couple of parts which would be expected from a random drawing from parts bins. But it is mine, the price was right and it shoots great!

03-12-2003, 06:45 AM	#6
Jukka Huvinen New User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you all for excellent information! I consider buying one, but I haven't seen it yet. I'll report later what it turns out. - Jukka